# DND OGL - Is anyone following this? Thoughts? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** rpg-dnd-wargames\ **Created:** [January 8, 2023, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnd-ogl-is-anyone-following-this-thoughts/977886 "2023-01-08T18:54:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2025, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnd-ogl-is-anyone-following-this-thoughts/977886/481 "2025-01-05T23:16:58Z")
Obviously WoW was primarily based on Warcraft, and it’s an open secret that Warcraft was primarily based on Warhammer. But I think it’s safe to say that pretty much all fantasy games have been influences on each other. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2025, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnd-ogl-is-anyone-following-this-thoughts/977886/482 "2025-01-05T23:44:12Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Obviously WoW was primarily based on Warcraft True that. I meant more MMO mechanics and what worked/didn’t work. Not that they needed EQ to come up with “Warrior class”. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnd-ogl-is-anyone-following-this-thoughts/977886/483 "2025-01-06T01:02:32Z")
> [@vislor](#): > > To fight ignorance, this never happened, as others have pointed out. > > [Pathfinder Never Outsold 4E D&D (ICYMI)](https://alphastream.org/index.php/2023/07/08/pathfinder-never-outsold-4e-dd-icymi/#:~:text=It%20is%20a%20popular%20myth,sales%20for%20the%20first%20time). > > I wanted it to be true for Paizo’s sake, because while I did play 4E for a while, I switched to PF1 around 2011 when 4E wasn’t fun for me anymore. My understanding is that 4E sold 2x as much as PF1 at the lowest. 5E is something like 10x more. Thank you for that link. I remember seeing what I’m now pretty sure were the ICv2 reports that that article references. I stand corrected. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Mind you for all the 4e hate, our DM bought the elite DM package for his computer and we had a great and fun 4e campaign. I will admit, it was gonna be hard to play with pencil and paper, however. Agreed on that – not only was 4E pretty challenging to do with a pencil and paper from the standpoint of character creation, but keeping track of buffs and debuffs (and when things wore off, or required saving throws, etc.) was a major pain. ---
**Author:** ![vislor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vislor/32/5933_2.png) [@vislor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vislor)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnd-ogl-is-anyone-following-this-thoughts/977886/484 "2025-01-06T01:31:47Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > A… little bit? Okay fair points. I never played Everquest so didn’t know about those aspects to them. > [@Chronos](#): > > Obviously WoW was primarily based on Warcraft, and it’s an open secret that Warcraft was primarily based on Warhammer. But I think it’s safe to say that pretty much all fantasy games have been influences on each other. In the end, I think they all influenced each other. Warhammer has skaven and I don’t think WoW ever did. Not that it is required but I don’t know of another system that had rat people in the base game. I thought Warhammer is dark fantasy and WoW seemed upbeat, regardless of which side was played. I think I made too generic of a statement so that’s on me. I do think that WoW used a gamist approach and that’s what was done in 4E. Thanks for the discussion! ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnd-ogl-is-anyone-following-this-thoughts/977886/485 "2025-01-06T01:37:24Z")
> [@vislor](#): > > I do think that WoW used a gamist approach and that’s what was done in 4E. My understanding was that capturing some of the feel and dynamics of an MMORPG was an intentional design goal for 4E, as WotC saw all these people playing fantasy RPGs, just not on a tabletop. When 4E came out, I had no experience as an MMO player, but a couple of years later, I did start playing one (Star Wars: The Old Republic). And, at that point, I realized just how much 4E’s mechanics were specifically mimicking an MMO, only on a tabletop game. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnd-ogl-is-anyone-following-this-thoughts/977886/486 "2025-01-06T01:38:47Z")
> [@vislor](#): > > I used the 4E character maker and agree it was required. I concur. Those PC sheest he printed out for us- in color mind you- were amazingly helpful. > [@vislor](#): > > I’m torn on him. I can’t tell if he is a “killer DM” or not. He has stated several times that once your PC gets to 0, that PC should be dead, and in fact put tyhat into a game he pushes- Deathbringer, whose title explains it all. > [@vislor](#): > > I admit I want to meet a lot of the current social media DND people (Ginny Di, I find her very entertaining, even tho i do not always agree- but I often do agree. > [@vislor](#): > > I’m still adding my own things to PF2 that are probably overpowered but fun. I’m also hoping to take the PF2 games to high levels because I think it will be easier to run a high level game in PF2. I have a copy of the PHB, and I was intrigued. > [@Chronos](#): > > Obviously WoW was primarily based on Warcraft, and it’s an open secret that Warcraft was primarily based on Warhammer. The first warhammer FRPG was clearly based on D&D. I dont play warhammer, so i cant speak to anything else besides Talisman, which of course hies back to D&D also. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnd-ogl-is-anyone-following-this-thoughts/977886/487 "2025-01-06T13:30:48Z")
> [@vislor](#): > > In the end, I think they all influenced each other. Warcraft and Starcraft are both very similar to Warhammer and WH40k respectively. It’s not a 1:1 copy by any stretch, but they share a lot of foundational elements. Decades later, WoW is much more of its own thing. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnd-ogl-is-anyone-following-this-thoughts/977886/488 "2025-01-06T13:52:56Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > why would you even watch CR unless you were interested in D&D? In the case of my daughter - because of the people who are in it. She was a fan of theirs from their voice acting work in other properties like anime and games. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnd-ogl-is-anyone-following-this-thoughts/977886/489 "2025-01-06T15:00:45Z")
> [@vislor](#): > > I was listening to a Roll for Combat stream and I was very happy when they brought up GNS (Gamist, Narrativist, Simulationist) theory. Could you point me to a reference for this? It sounds interesting, but might be being the scope of this thread. > [@Chronos](#): > > TPKs aren’t a good thing. But the possibility of them is. The whole point of a game is for the party to overcome risks. There’s two parts to that: They have to overcome, of course, but also there has to be risk. And also, the risk of death creates constraints, and constraints make for good story telling, and create a need for creative solutions. And creativity is more fun than blasting away. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnd-ogl-is-anyone-following-this-thoughts/977886/490 "2025-01-06T16:59:22Z")
While I couldn’t have told you the road they used to get there, when I would DM for Adventurer’s League, I had a few people join for their first ever game because they were introduced via Critical Role. In recent years, I wouldn’t be surprised if people see amusing clips via TikTok, Instagram, etc and then decide to watch whole episodes because it was funny and THEN look into the game itself. Just a guess though. Of course, if you go into an Adventurer’s League game expecting high tier roleplaying and character development, you’re going to leave disappointed but that’s besides the point. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnd-ogl-is-anyone-following-this-thoughts/977886/491 "2025-01-06T17:55:49Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > In recent years, I wouldn’t be surprised if people see amusing clips via TikTok, Instagram, etc and then decide to watch whole episodes because it was funny and THEN look into the game itself. Just a guess though. D&D has become mainstream, and when something becomes mainstream there’s no need (or _way_) to pin down how people hear about it. Baldur’s Gate 3 sold around 15 million copies and I guarantee a substantial proportion of them have never rolled a d20 in real life. “Why would anybody outside the hobby be interested in stuff related to the hobby?” is grognard talk. We old timers are no longer representative of the hobby’s core demographic (and good riddance to us). ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnd-ogl-is-anyone-following-this-thoughts/977886/492 "2025-01-06T17:58:56Z")
Fair, but this was pre-Covid and, while D&D was clearly on the rise, it was before the movie or Amazon show or BG3 getting every game award ever, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnd-ogl-is-anyone-following-this-thoughts/977886/493 "2025-01-06T18:13:02Z")
Fair enough. It’s definitely reasonable to say that the hobby’s mainstreamification has accelerated drastically since the pandemic. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnd-ogl-is-anyone-following-this-thoughts/977886/494 "2025-01-06T19:25:09Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Of course, if you go into an Adventurer’s League game expecting high tier roleplaying and character development, you’re going to leave disappointed but that’s besides the point. Yeah, I played in a couple with a skill based pC- the rest of the party was damaged based. I got the group award for MVP. Mind you, my damage was substandard. > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > D&D has become mainstream, and when something becomes mainstream there’s no need (or _way_) to pin down how people hear about it. Baldur’s Gate 3 sold around 15 million copies and I guarantee a substantial proportion of them have never rolled a d20 in real life. Well, we asked people. But yeah BG3 is brining in lots of new players. > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > “Why would anybody outside the hobby be interested in stuff related to the hobby?” is grognard talk. It’s talking heads. > [@Jophiel](#): > > Fair, but this was pre-Covid and, while D&D was clearly on the rise, it was before the movie or Amazon show or BG3 getting every game award ever, etc. But not pre-Stranger Things. ---
**Author:** ![vislor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vislor/32/5933_2.png) [@vislor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vislor)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnd-ogl-is-anyone-following-this-thoughts/977886/495 "2025-01-06T19:31:04Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Could you point me to a reference for this? It sounds interesting, but might be being the scope of this thread. In looking for sources, I found these. > **[GNS theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNS_theory)** > > GNS theory is an informal field of study developed by Ron Edwards which attempts to create a unified theory of how role-playing games work. Focused on player behavior, in GNS theory participants in role-playing games organize their interactions around three categories of engagement: Gamism, Narrativism and Simulation. > The theory focuses on player interaction rather than statistics, encompassing game design beyond role-playing games. Analysis centers on how player behavior fits the above paramete... [https://www.reddit.com/r/DMAcademy/comments/wbbzwg/gns\_theory\_for\_5e\_digging\_into\_why\_some\_games/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DMAcademy/comments/wbbzwg/gns_theory_for_5e_digging_into_why_some_games/) There is a link in that one to Ron Edwards initial writings on it here [http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/1/](http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/1/) For myself, Gamist is playing by the rules. It is a board game mindset where the rules are the most important. In contrast, Simulationists want internal consistency. They are trying to simulate the world and then live within it through their characters. Narratavists want to tell a good story. I try and be in the middle of all of them. I leaned toward narration with the secondary being simulationist but have swapped that out for gamist. More than willing to talk about this in another thread if anyone is interested. Thanks for the discussion! ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnd-ogl-is-anyone-following-this-thoughts/977886/496 "2025-01-06T19:40:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But not pre-Stranger Things. True, though I never had anyone reference Stranger Things as a reason for being interested. I did have multiple people reference Critical Role. ---
**Author:** ![vislor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vislor/32/5933_2.png) [@vislor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vislor)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnd-ogl-is-anyone-following-this-thoughts/977886/497 "2025-01-06T21:13:23Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > True, though I never had anyone reference Stranger Things as a reason for being interested. I did have multiple people reference Critical Role. I haven’t really paid much attention to what is happening in the community. I ran DND Adventure’s League back in '10/'11 or so. I enjoyed it, even 4E, but trailed off as I got busy with other things. I know that my local game store for 5E game night usually has four to six tables, from what I hear. The few times I have gone, that tracks and they were full. I don’t know what brought the players there and haven’t gone to one since covid. I know the people who run it and hear it’s still quite busy. I have my groups and run for them. I may have run Adventurer’s League for a year but it was to find players for a home game, which I did. Still game with one of those guys and am friends with the another. Maybe I should go back some night and try or at least go watch. It would be interesting to hear how people got into the game. Thanks for the discussion! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2025, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnd-ogl-is-anyone-following-this-thoughts/977886/498 "2025-01-06T21:32:19Z")
> [@vislor](#): > > For myself, Gamist is playing by the rules. It is a board game mindset where the rules are the most important. It’s not just “follow the rules”; it’s about the philosophy behind the rules. For instance, from a gamist perspective, it’s important that there be balance between the classes. But that might or might not be relevant from a narrative point of view, and might actually go against simulationism. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnd-ogl-is-anyone-following-this-thoughts/977886/499 "2025-01-07T00:50:48Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > When 4E came out, I had no experience as an MMO player, but a couple of years later, I did start playing one (Star Wars: The Old Republic). And, at that point, I realized just how much 4E’s mechanics were specifically mimicking an MMO, only on a tabletop game. Ditto. I played a little Everquest and quickly switched over to World of Warcraft _after_ I first played D&D 4th edition. My immediate reaction to pressing buttons for different abilities and having some with cooldowns meaning I could only use them a limited number of times in an encounter really, really made me think of 4th edition. Some 4th edition fans get howling mad if you suggest their beloved game was influenced by MMORPG mechanics. You know, their beloved game with tanks, DPS, and healers. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2025, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnd-ogl-is-anyone-following-this-thoughts/977886/500 "2025-01-07T01:20:08Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > You know, their beloved game with tanks, DPS, and healers. Defenders, strikers, and leaders – _completely_ different! 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnd-ogl-is-anyone-following-this-thoughts/977886.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dnd-ogl-is-anyone-following-this-thoughts/977886.md?page=26)