# Do abortion rights imply "heroin rights"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 23, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-abortion-rights-imply-heroin-rights/672038 "2013-10-23T16:46:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-abortion-rights-imply-heroin-rights/672038/21 "2013-10-23T22:28:21Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The “freedom do do what you choose with your body” argument is heavily undermined in the case of heroin because of its addictiveness. Addiction is a _compulsion_; the addict isn’t making free choices, she’s making _compelled_ choices. Her judgement is severely distorted. It isn’t really her free choice to take heroin any more than it’s her free choice to have sex if someone has drugged her drink to render her semiconscious. It could be argues that pregnancy brings about hormonal changes that also alter ‘free’ will. T ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-abortion-rights-imply-heroin-rights/672038/22 "2013-10-23T22:35:15Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > It could be argues that pregnancy brings about hormonal changes that also alter ‘free’ will. Not to nearly the same degree, usually. And the rare women who do go off the rails due to hormones with [post-partum psychosis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postpartum_psychosis) and the like are just that; rare. Addiction is the _norm_ with heroin. Feeling a bit moody isn’t the same as feeling compelled to rob people to feed your addiction. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-abortion-rights-imply-heroin-rights/672038/23 "2013-10-23T23:51:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The “freedom do do what you choose with your body” argument is heavily undermined in the case of heroin because of its addictiveness. Addiction is a _compulsion_; the addict isn’t making free choices, she’s making _compelled_ choices. Her judgement is severely distorted. It isn’t really her free choice to take heroin any more than it’s her free choice to have sex if someone has drugged her drink to render her semiconscious. I had no idea someone could be addicted to heroin without choosing to first use heroin. The best way to handle heroinaddiction is probably force addicts to black market dealers and throw the in cages when caught If you use the bodily ownership argument in favor, of legalizing abortion, legalizing drugs and anything else should follow. The problem is most people that use that argument are using it in an ad hoc fashion, and are not making a stand on that principle. The whole business about drugs being different because they harm society is fluff. Society can’t be harmed, it is merely shorthand for the sum of voluntary interactions between individuals. Only individuals can be harmed. And the individuals harmed by them should be held responsible. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-abortion-rights-imply-heroin-rights/672038/24 "2013-10-24T00:28:02Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I had no idea someone could be addicted to heroin without choosing to first use heroin. Just because they choose to use it at the start doesn’t mean they have much of a choice about continuing to use it. And in fact I understand it’s not all that unusual for heroin to be forced on women to addict them, to coerce them to cooperate as prostitutes. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The best way to handle heroinaddiction is probably force addicts to black market dealers and throw the in cages when caught :dubious: Considering that that’s exactly what we do now and it works terribly, no it’s not a good way of handling the problem. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > If you use the bodily ownership argument in favor, of legalizing abortion, legalizing drugs and anything else should follow. The problem is most people that use that argument are using it in an ad hoc fashion, and are not making a stand on that principle. Because picking a single principle and sticking to it no matter what the results are of doing so tends not to work out well in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-abortion-rights-imply-heroin-rights/672038/25 "2013-10-24T00:38:50Z")
It really depends on the basis for the right. In the US we do not require you to donate blood, or organs, or bone marrow, not even to save someone’s life, not even if we caused their need in the first place, not even if our acts were deliberate and criminal. If I stab you and destroy your right kidney, you don’t get to take one of mine. If I stab you in both kidneys, you still don’t get to take one of mine. If I shoot you and you’ll die from loss of blood, you don’t get my blood to survive, even if it is just a teaspoon. I think this is the correct standard and I think that it extends logically to women and their body parts. I am undecided about most drugs, though marijuana should be legal. In general, I think things should be legal unless there’s an incredibly compelling reason for it to be illegal, and I’m not sure many drugs meet that standard. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-abortion-rights-imply-heroin-rights/672038/26 "2013-10-24T00:42:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Just because they choose to use it at the start doesn’t mean they have much of a choice about continuing to use it. And in fact I understand it’s not all that unusual for heroin to be forced on women to addict them, to coerce them to cooperate as prostitutes. Ok it’s obvious that making heroin and prostitution illegal doesn’t stop that. If someone forces someone to use drugs, that should be prosecuted. Not if someone chooses to use drugs. You are conflating two different problems. > [@](#): > > Because picking a single principle and sticking to it no matter what the results are of doing so tends not to work out well in the real world Abandoning principle in arbitrary fashion doesn’t work that well in the real world either. I’d rather err on the side of not using aggression against others. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-abortion-rights-imply-heroin-rights/672038/27 "2013-10-24T00:48:23Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Ok it’s obvious that making heroin and prostitution illegal doesn’t stop that. In fact, it enables such behavior by making the women criminals. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Abandoning principle in arbitrary fashion doesn’t work that well in the real world either. I’d rather err on the side of not using aggression against others. Your position of “round up people who use drugs and put them in cages” is aggression. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-abortion-rights-imply-heroin-rights/672038/28 "2013-10-24T00:52:56Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I had no idea someone could be addicted to heroin without choosing to first use heroin. The best way to handle heroinaddiction is probably force addicts to black market dealers and throw the in cages when caught Why? ---
**Author:** ![aag3981](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@aag3981](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aag3981)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-abortion-rights-imply-heroin-rights/672038/29 "2013-10-24T01:01:25Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Many proponents of abortion rights believe sentiments to the effect that a woman’s body is her own and thus she, and only she, has the right to choose, or not to choose, to have an abortion. FWIW, I stand solidly behind this line of reasoning. > > That said, it seems to me that the same logic applies to things like a woman’s right to take whatever drug (legal or not) she wishes, to prostitute herself, to gamble, etc. Yet, and correct me if I’m wrong about this, one ‘never’ hears women’s abortion rights activists/proponents making statements to the effect of, “a woman’s body is her own and thus she has the right to smoke grass, snort coke (or whatever)”. > > Now, I am not suggesting that all women, or even many women, want to exercise their rights to smoke dope or gamble. What I am saying is that anyone who subscribes to the syllogism that “a woman’s body is her own and thus . . . she has the right to choose to have an abortion”, would be a hypocrite not to support those women who do wish to smoke dope, gamble, etc. As a non-hypocrite, I would support such women. And men. > > Do you agree? I would take issue with an abortion way before I would any drug use or prostitution. Abortion effects another person. Undeveloped, unknowing person, sure, but drug use, the act of using drugs itself, only effects the person consuming the drugs. Prostitution has never bothered me and I believe it should be legal. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-abortion-rights-imply-heroin-rights/672038/30 "2013-10-24T01:16:39Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The “freedom do do what you choose with your body” argument is heavily undermined in the case of heroin because of its addictiveness. Addiction is a _compulsion_ . . . So, the government (i.e. other humans with their agendas, prejudices, etc.,) should make addicts criminals? But it’s even more than that - you seem to be saying that because _some_ people will get addicted that \*no one \*should be allowed to access those drugs. Thank you, but I am willing to take that risk (for myself). I may not get addicted (and some people don’t). You also start with the assumption that addiction is such a horrible development and is so intolerable that it goes without saying that its prevention pre-emptively strips me, and any other like-minded individuals, of my right of self-determination. But that’s just _your_ value judgment; no matter how compelling you find it, it’s nothing more than _your_ values, _your_ judgment. No better or worse than mine or anyone else’s. Why should your values prevail? Oh, you’ll say because of the societal harm addiction engenders. I would counter that much, maybe most, and possible all the “societal” harm is a result of the drugs’ illegality - the need to resort to crime to pay for one’s habit etc. At the end of the day, all of you who invoke the “well this is different” arguments are just attempting to justify having your values and morals become law. ---
**Author:** ![aag3981](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@aag3981](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aag3981)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-abortion-rights-imply-heroin-rights/672038/31 "2013-10-24T01:18:28Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Of course, abortion opponents might say that permitting abortion rots society in profound ways. I would disagree, mind you. Again, I go back to the syllogism above - you either believe it or you don’t. And, if you do, you allow drug use etc. There is an interesting study I saw on Freakonomics that showed how the legalization of abortion correlates with the decline of crime 20 years later. They even showed that showed how states that legalized it earlier enjoyed a sooner decline in crime than states that lagged or how states with more restrictions on abortion didn’t have as much of a decline. So maybe abortion isn’t all that bad. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-abortion-rights-imply-heroin-rights/672038/32 "2013-10-24T01:19:35Z")
> [@aag3981](#): > > Abortion effects another person. Undeveloped, unknowing person, sure, . . . Although I disagree with your implication, I think you are right. And it makes me all the more convinced that so-called “crimes” which affect no other individuals are clearly not (crimes). ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-abortion-rights-imply-heroin-rights/672038/33 "2013-10-24T01:21:53Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The best way to handle heroinaddiction is probably force addicts to black market dealers and throw the in cages when caught. I assume you are being sarcastic? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-abortion-rights-imply-heroin-rights/672038/34 "2013-10-24T01:22:31Z")
> [@aag3981](#): > > I would take issue with an abortion way before I would any drug use or prostitution. Abortion effects another person. No, it doesn’t; a fetus isn’t a person. Certainly not in the sense that makes “affecting” it a legal or moral matter. There’s no one there to _be_ affected. > [@KarlGauss](#): > > So, the government (i.e. other humans with their agendas, prejudices, etc.,) should make addicts criminals? No, probably not. But it should probably do something to prevent people from being addicted and to try to get people off drugs. > [@KarlGauss](#): > > You also start with the assumption that addiction is such a horrible development and is so intolerable that it goes without saying that its prevention pre-emptively strips me, and any other like-minded individuals, of my right of self-determination. It strips you of the capacity for self determination, not the right. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-abortion-rights-imply-heroin-rights/672038/35 "2013-10-24T01:27:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It strips you of the capacity for self determination, not the right. No, addiction does (maybe). So make addiction illegal if you want to impose your view that _preservation of capacity_ for self determination overrides one’s _right_ of self determination. But let “drugs” remain legal. IOW, I think you are conflating things here. And trying to impose your values on others. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-abortion-rights-imply-heroin-rights/672038/36 "2013-10-24T01:33:37Z")
My personal opinion is that the OP’s analogy is a valid one. An individual’s right to control their own person should include the right to consume whatever substances they want. If it were up to me, I’d repeal all drug laws with the exception of restricting sales to minors and keeping it illegal to do some activities while under the influence of drugs. But if you’re an adult and you want to shoot up speedballs in the privacy of your own home, have at it. ---
**Author:** ![aag3981](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@aag3981](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aag3981)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-abortion-rights-imply-heroin-rights/672038/37 "2013-10-24T01:48:21Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Well, I think it’s easy to believe that abortion has no broader societal effects and therefore shouldn’t be banned, but drug use and prostitution does and should be banned. > > For example, it can be easily argued (IMO) that, while prostitution in some ideal form is fine, the reality is that many women end up effectively slaves in that role, and it spreads STDs, and it could break up families. Whereas, an abortion can be a quiet matter between a woman and her doctor. > > So, I don’t see the automatic hypocrisy of being for abortion rights but against legalized drugs. The libertarian argument for abortion rights isn’t the only possible argument. If one sees an abortion as just another medical procedure, rather than a woman’s right to bodily autonomy trumping any rights the fetus may have, then you can be for the medical procedure without any comment whatsoever on drugs, prostitution, etc. As far as prostitution goes, there are blogs by prostitutes that defend their profession. Report that the most visible are the street walker, unstable type. Also, while the heavier drugs are highly addictive there are people that use them and function, be it recreational use or addiction. Maybe the whole story isn’t there. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-abortion-rights-imply-heroin-rights/672038/38 "2013-10-24T01:54:00Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > No, addiction does (maybe). Arguing that heroin doesn’t strip you of free choice, addiction does is a lot like arguing that guns don’t hurt you, bullets do. OK for the punchline of a joke, but not very useful as an argument. ---
**Author:** ![Section\_Maker\_Jupe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/section_maker_jupe/32/1424_2.png) [@Section\_Maker\_Jupe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Section_Maker_Jupe)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-abortion-rights-imply-heroin-rights/672038/39 "2013-10-24T02:06:56Z")
What should society do with a women carrying a child to term who insists on using drugs.? Seems the larger interest would be to prevent that sort of thing. Bit of a slippery slope, I know, I dont have an answer for that. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-abortion-rights-imply-heroin-rights/672038/40 "2013-10-24T02:29:20Z")
Am I missing something? If you made a Venn Diagram of people who are pro-choice, pro-drug, and pro-prostitution you’d get a lot of overlap. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-abortion-rights-imply-heroin-rights/672038.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-abortion-rights-imply-heroin-rights/672038.md?page=3)