# Do Actual Mormons follow their own rules? If not, what happens? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 22, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-actual-mormons-follow-their-own-rules-if-not-what-happens/572229 "2011-02-22T15:23:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-actual-mormons-follow-their-own-rules-if-not-what-happens/572229/41 "2011-02-23T08:37:07Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Suppose you get a revelation from Joseph Smith-who tells you “Drink Moxie”! > Would it be OK? As Joseph Smith is dead, then it would be quite the revelation. ---
**Author:** ![TravisFromOR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cc9497/32.png) [@TravisFromOR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisFromOR)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-actual-mormons-follow-their-own-rules-if-not-what-happens/572229/42 "2011-02-23T08:53:30Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Suppose you get a revelation from Joseph Smith-who tells you “Drink Moxie”! > Would it be OK? I’ve had Moxie before. It wasn’t that great. Nothing to come back from the dead to promote, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-actual-mormons-follow-their-own-rules-if-not-what-happens/572229/43 "2011-02-23T17:40:08Z")
> [@TravisFromOR](#): > > I’ve had \*\*Moxie \*\*before. It wasn’t that great. Nothing to come back from the dead to promote, anyway. Oh Lordy, don’t say that in front of my Dad! He used to have cases of the stuff choppered in when his local store stopped carrying it! This is all very interesting, I had no idea these were matters of interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-actual-mormons-follow-their-own-rules-if-not-what-happens/572229/44 "2011-02-23T19:06:02Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > The strict emphasis on the WoW did not occur until well after the Mormons arrived in Utah. Some scholars believe it served as a public replacement for the symbolic nature of polygamy of the separateness of Mormonism. A way of emphasizing the Mormon “us” vs. the non-Mormon “them”? Resonates with something mentioned by Diamond in _Collapse_ regarding populations adopting dietary restrictions for distinction (specifically the Greenland vikings not eating fish despite that being a decent resource of the area). > [@Jragon](#): > > Many of my Mormon friends won’t touch the stuff, but at least a few will drink a little Coke if they have headaches, and from their and my other friend’s descriptions nobody really says anything about it, nor cares. I think that some of it is definitely regional, what is technically WoW but secretly THE UNBREAKABLE LAW depends on the views and zeitgeist of your local priesthood. A Mormon ex-flatmate of mine used to drink coffee and Coke… and he got excommunicated!! :eek: ('course it might have had something to do with him coming out as gay to his bishop). 😛 ---
**Author:** ![TravisFromOR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cc9497/32.png) [@TravisFromOR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisFromOR)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-actual-mormons-follow-their-own-rules-if-not-what-happens/572229/45 "2011-02-23T19:54:27Z")
> [@Apollyon](#): > > A Mormon ex-flatmate of mine used to drink coffee and Coke… and he got excommunicated!! :eek: > > ('course it might have had something to do with him coming out as gay to his bishop). 😛 I didn’t know there was a correlation there. Makes sense, I drank a lot of coffee as a child. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-actual-mormons-follow-their-own-rules-if-not-what-happens/572229/46 "2011-02-23T22:31:06Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The thing is, both hot tea and hot chocolate have caffeine in them. I know. I have to avoid caffeine for medical reasons, and I can’t drink any of those. > > Hot tea is not the same thing as herbal tea, which isn’t really tea at all. Nothing in the commandment says “tea and coffee are heavily caffeinated and therefore bad for you.” The scripture says “hot drinks” and current leadership says “hot drinks = coffee and tea, everything else is up to you and we aren’t saying anything about caffeine in general.” It is not, in fact, a ban on caffeine–but many people think of it like that and since the stuff is habit-forming, it’s good to avoid. So: iced tea is out, energy drinks are widely considered to be really quite bad stuff, Coke and so on is perhaps not that great but you should make up your own mind, herbal tea is not actually tea, and everyone likes all forms of chocolate. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-actual-mormons-follow-their-own-rules-if-not-what-happens/572229/47 "2011-02-23T22:45:02Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > Nothing in the commandment … What’s this about a commandment? Yes, I know most active LDS regard the Word of Wisdom as a commandment. And you can’t go to the temple unless you obey. And you can’t learn the handshakes without going to the temple. And you can’t get past the pearly gates without knowing the handshakes. But you’re forgetting that [God Almighty declared](http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/89?lang=eng)that it is **not** a commandment, just a word of wisdom: > [@Doctrine and Covenants 89](#): > > 1 A Word of Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion— > 2 To be sent greeting; **not by commandment** or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days— ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-actual-mormons-follow-their-own-rules-if-not-what-happens/572229/48 "2011-02-23T22:52:04Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > What’s this about a commandment? Yes, I know most active LDS regard the Word of Wisdom as a commandment. And you can’t go to the temple unless you obey. And you can’t learn the handshakes without going to the temple. And you can’t get past the pearly gates without knowing the handshakes. > > But you’re forgetting that [God Almighty declared](http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/89?lang=eng)that it is **not** a commandment, just a word of wisdom: ETA: this post was overly snarky. I’m being rude, and I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-actual-mormons-follow-their-own-rules-if-not-what-happens/572229/49 "2011-02-23T23:14:59Z")
> [@](#): > > ETA: this post was overly snarky. I’m being rude, and I apologize. Maybe it’s time to cut back on the caffeine. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-actual-mormons-follow-their-own-rules-if-not-what-happens/572229/50 "2011-02-23T23:55:20Z")
> [@Reloy3](#): > > 1. No “Black Leaf” Teas. There are a number of LDS members in good standing who sell Green Tea as a wieght loss product around here, and if you are under the weather, you’ll often get herbal teas to sooth you as gifts. This doesn’t make sense to me for three reasons: (1) If you read the WoW as “no hot drinks,” then green tea would be included, as it’s served hot. Granted, black tea is typically steeped in hotter water than green tea, but it’s still hot. (2) If you read it as “no caffeinated drinks,” then green tea would be included, as it has caffeine in it. (3) Green tea and black tea (and white tea and oolong and pu-erh and…) are all produced from the same plant, using somewhat different techniques. It would be like saying that medium-blend Columbian coffee is okay but espresso is evil. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-actual-mormons-follow-their-own-rules-if-not-what-happens/572229/51 "2011-02-24T00:26:24Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > If only this were the pit. Please elaborate. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-actual-mormons-follow-their-own-rules-if-not-what-happens/572229/52 "2011-02-24T00:33:22Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > The scripture says “hot drinks” and current leadership says "hot drinks = coffee and tea, everything else is up to you… herbal tea is not actually tea… So… herbal tea isn’t tea, and isn’t a “hot drink” despite it being hot? 😕 No snark **dangermom** , but that just seems very confusing… So tea = _Camellia sinensis_, but not the various herb and flower based tisanes? I wonder how South African red tea is classified. (It’s called a tea rather than a herb tea, but is derived from a different plant). ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-actual-mormons-follow-their-own-rules-if-not-what-happens/572229/53 "2011-02-24T00:53:33Z")
Of course it’s confusing. That’s what happens when you make things up as you go along. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-actual-mormons-follow-their-own-rules-if-not-what-happens/572229/54 "2011-02-24T01:43:52Z")
> [@Apollyon](#): > > So… herbal tea isn’t tea, and isn’t a “hot drink” despite it being hot? 😕 No snark **dangermom** , but that just seems very confusing… > > So tea = _Camellia sinensis_, but not the various herb and flower based tisanes? I wonder how South African red tea is classified. (It’s called a tea rather than a herb tea, but is derived from a different plant). Technically speaking, red tea (rooibos) isn’t tea either, since it’s made from _Aspalathus linearis_ instead of _Camellia sinensis_, but in common U.S. parlance, pretty much any drink made from soaking plant matter in hot water is called tea. I’m funny about rooibos, though. I call it tea, even though I make a point of saying “herbal tea” or “infusion” for anything else not made from tea plants. I don’t generally use the word “tisane” in casual conversation because I have to explain it every time. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-actual-mormons-follow-their-own-rules-if-not-what-happens/572229/55 "2011-02-24T01:56:58Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > What’s this about a commandment? Yes, I know most active LDS regard the Word of Wisdom as a commandment. And you can’t go to the temple unless you obey. And you can’t learn the handshakes without going to the temple. And you can’t get past the pearly gates without knowing the handshakes. > > But you’re forgetting that [God Almighty declared](http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/89?lang=eng)that it is **not** a commandment, just a word of wisdom: > [@Rhodes](#): > > ETA: this post was overly snarky. I’m being rude, and I apologize. Perhaps it was snarky, but the question still remain valid, although it will be interesting to see if there is a response from someone. Your point reinforced what I said in my post, that the Word of Wisdom has been elevated to beyond what it was originally, a response to Smith’s wife Emma about the mess she would have to clean up after church meetings. As I posted yesterday, it was _advice_ to the early Saints. Brigham Young was clear about this. From his words [(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, p. 361)](http://www.journalofdiscourses.org/volume-08/) > [@The Lion of the Lord](#): > > Many of the brethren chew tobacco, and I have advised them to be modest about it. Do not take out a WHOLE PLUG OF TOBACCO IN MEETING BEFORE THE EYES OF THE CONGREGATION, AND CUT OFF A LONG SLICE AND PUT IT IN YOUR MOUTH, to the annoyance of everybody around. Do not glory in this disgraceful practice. If you must use tobacco, put a small portion in your mouth when no person sees you, and be careful that no one sees you chew it. I do not charge you with sin. You have the “Word of Wisdom.” Read it. (emphasis added) The question of how the Word of Wisdom was changed from advice to the mistakenly, but commonly held belief of being a commandment would be an interesting topic for a research paper or a book. When did this occur and why? This is an interesting phenomenon which occurs within Mormonism, (and to be fair, probably within most fundamentalist churches) where a great deal of the teachings are treated as the word of God, but with plausible deniability build into the system. Other teachings, such as the historical denial of the priesthood to black, are treated this way. It was an official doctrine of the church, formally stated by the church to be a direct command from God, then changed and then the current spin by members was that it was never official; that the apostles were only expressing their personal opinion. I see this as a fundamentally dishonest argument by the apologists for the church. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-actual-mormons-follow-their-own-rules-if-not-what-happens/572229/56 "2011-02-24T02:37:48Z")
> [@sassyfras](#): > > But is there no distinction between believing the fundamental part of the religion (whatever that is, I care more about the underwear issue) and obeying a (to me) a minor rule, which seems to me to be merely a custom (The underwear)? There is no distinction within Mormonism between symbolic issues and what you are calling the fundamental part. Heavy emphasis is on visible issues, the underwear and following the Word of Wisdom. > [@Apollyon](#): > > A way of emphasizing the Mormon “us” vs. the non-Mormon “them”? Resonates with something mentioned by Diamond in _Collapse_ regarding populations adopting dietary restrictions for distinction (specifically the Greenland vikings not eating fish despite that being a decent resource of the area). Some people agree with this, and I’m interested in studying more about the issue, since the question of why this would receive such strong emphasis. > [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > The question of how the Word of Wisdom was changed from advice to the mistakenly, but commonly held belief of being a commandment would be an interesting topic for a research paper or a book. When did this occur and why? [Ask and yea shall receive](http://mormonmatters.org/2009/12/28/the-word-of-wisdom-and-the-temple-personal-political-and-prophetic-dimensions/). > [@](#): > > Obedience to the Word of Wisdom, it is commonly known, was not always a requirement for entering the Temple or advancement in the Priesthood. What is less clear from the historicl record is when this principle moved to become a requirement. President Joseph Fielding Smith believed the change occurred in 1851, but an excellent article by McCue has shown this cannot be the case [1]. Others have argued that it occurred under the Joseph F. Smith administration (he seems to have been the first to have said it was a commandment – but it was only made a test of fellowship in extreme cases and informally in a letter dated Dec 28 1915 [2]). Contrastingly Thomas Alexander argued that it happened under President Grant. I agree with Alexander, but there is even confusion about when it was made official, was it early 20′s or early 30′s and what led to these changes? ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-actual-mormons-follow-their-own-rules-if-not-what-happens/572229/57 "2011-02-24T02:38:35Z")
[quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:54, topic:572229”] I don’t generally use the word “tisane” in casual conversation because I have to explain it every time. [/QUOTE] Not to anyone who’s ever read any Agatha Christie. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-actual-mormons-follow-their-own-rules-if-not-what-happens/572229/58 "2011-02-24T16:29:29Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > What’s this about a commandment? Yes, I know most active LDS regard the Word of Wisdom as a commandment. And you can’t go to the temple unless you obey. [snip] To generally address this question, the WoW was indeed put in place as a recommendation. Over the years, obedience to it was patchy and sporadic, but it was generally recognized as a standard one should at least aspire to. Brigham Young’s challenge at a conference in 1851 to really start living it properly is, I think, widely considered to be the point at which it started to become a commandment, though it was still slow to be accepted. Mormons generally consider this to be gentleness while members got used to the idea. Yes, not living the _basics_ of the WoW will keep you out of the temple, which requires a higher standard, but we’re still not living it all that well what with all the meat and junk we eat. WoW violations won’t get you excommunicated though. Likewise, not paying tithing will keep you out of the temple, but it won’t keep you out of the church. There are quite a few things like that. I’m pretty burned out these days on arguing LDS doctrine here, and I’m too busy anyway. So while I’m happy to answer basic questions, I’m not into going very indepth. I’m just not in a position to do that at the moment. And yep, herbal tea is really a tisane or infusion, not a tea. I wouldn’t know anything whatsoever about African red tea or Argentinian mate or all those other things we could argue about endlessly. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-actual-mormons-follow-their-own-rules-if-not-what-happens/572229/59 "2011-02-24T17:36:46Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > And yep, herbal tea is really a tisane or infusion, not a tea. I wouldn’t know anything whatsoever about African red tea or Argentinian mate or all those other things we could argue about endlessly. That could make for an entertaining thread. If you start one up, let me know. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-actual-mormons-follow-their-own-rules-if-not-what-happens/572229/60 "2011-02-24T18:21:32Z")
So would “cold tea” -the kind served by certain Chinese restaurants-be OK? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-actual-mormons-follow-their-own-rules-if-not-what-happens/572229.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-actual-mormons-follow-their-own-rules-if-not-what-happens/572229.md?page=4)