# Do adult gay men/women have a moral or ethical duty to come out of the closet? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2012, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-gay-men-women-have-a-moral-or-ethical-duty-to-come-out-of-the-closet/620564 "2012-05-01T21:59:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-gay-men-women-have-a-moral-or-ethical-duty-to-come-out-of-the-closet/620564/21 "2012-05-03T08:51:01Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Anecdote time: > Last night five of us went out for dinner last night. 5 men which was two gay couples and another whose gay partner is back home in a different country. We were enjoying our conversation and the roaming accordionist comes up to start chatting with us. We were polite and exchanged some pleasantries and ordered our foot. One of us ordered the 1 meter long bratwurst (which if eaten entirely gets you a shot of liquor and a certificate). Well, the accordionist comes back over and starts pushing our friend to finish so he can put the certificate up above his bed and get “all the ladies he wants” with that. > > We smiled and joked and our friend demurred that he really didn’t “want women…from this country”. We joked around and then the accordionist went on a hunt to find a single girl for our friend. > > Now, we are not closeted people. We are all out to friends, family, co-workers, anyone who we really interact with. But is it our duty to correct those who assume we are straight? Is that what being out is? That we should change the conversation and try and let a random stranger know that he’s mistaken about us needing a meter long sausage to get women into bed? 😃 Do straight guys really put bratwurst certificates over their beds? That’s the funniest thing I’ve ever heard. Damn, if that’s what they have to go through to impress women . . . I’m so glad I’m gay. And no, I have no moral obligation to say that, nor should I. Coming out is an extremely personal choice, and shouldn’t be required for political or societal reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-gay-men-women-have-a-moral-or-ethical-duty-to-come-out-of-the-closet/620564/22 "2012-05-03T09:16:07Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > 😃 Do straight guys really put bratwurst certificates over their beds? That’s the funniest thing I’ve ever heard. I think the corpse of Sigmund Freud has just exploded. Although you’d think straight guys would be one of the last groups to demonstrate their sexual prowess by sausage swallowing… ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-gay-men-women-have-a-moral-or-ethical-duty-to-come-out-of-the-closet/620564/23 "2012-05-03T09:29:28Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > Do adult gay men/women have a moral or ethical duty to come out of the closet? The 70s are over. Sexuality is personal, private. Not public, political. > [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Live your lives, straights! Go make babies or visit the nudie bar or Chili’s or whatever! Yeah. Same to you. Live you lives, homos! Tune in to Eurovision, hang around saunas or whatever. > [@panache45](#): > > 😃 Do straight guys really put bratwurst certificates over their beds? Absolutely. Chicks love it. A sure pussy magnet. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-gay-men-women-have-a-moral-or-ethical-duty-to-come-out-of-the-closet/620564/24 "2012-05-03T09:34:45Z")
I’ve never heard this argued on a personal level, but I have seen gay people upset that a celebrity won’t come out, especially at times when they perceive it would be easy. I’d guess I’d say that I think each person has the right to decide whether coming out would do more good than harm. Just make sure you do count “make some people less homophobic” as one of the “pros” when making the decision. Coming out may be ethical if all else is equal, but how often is that the case? ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-gay-men-women-have-a-moral-or-ethical-duty-to-come-out-of-the-closet/620564/25 "2012-05-03T10:09:50Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > But is it our duty to correct those who assume we are straight? Is that what being out is? This is interesting. As a straight, I sometimes find out that someone is gay through their use of pronouns when referring to their partner or romantic interests. Like when a woman says: “Ill have to check with my partner about that date, _ **she** _ might have other plans that Friday”. For a while, the use of the non-gender word "my partner"was so fashionably widespread that I started to assume people were gay when they took too much effort to avoid to interject a “he” “she” or “my wife/husband” when that would have been appropriate in the conversation. That led to some embarrassing situations either way. Let me put it this way: are gay people responsible for the slight social discomfort (have I been a bigot) in people like me, when I find out I have used the wrong gender pronoun in referring to the gay persons social partner? Should everyone, not just gay people, go out of their way to avoid giving off such clues as to the sex of their partner in social conversations? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-gay-men-women-have-a-moral-or-ethical-duty-to-come-out-of-the-closet/620564/26 "2012-05-03T11:01:01Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Should everyone, not just gay people, go out of their way to avoid giving off such clues as to the sex of their partner in social conversations? In such situations, everyone should be free to do whatever they damn well please. Trying to politicise their personal relationships and their personal preferences is just screwed up. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-gay-men-women-have-a-moral-or-ethical-duty-to-come-out-of-the-closet/620564/27 "2012-05-03T11:13:31Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > In such situations, everyone should be free to do whatever they damn well please. Trying to politicise their personal relationships and their personal preferences is just screwed up. No, that is needing a new etiquette. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-gay-men-women-have-a-moral-or-ethical-duty-to-come-out-of-the-closet/620564/28 "2012-05-03T11:39:12Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > No, that is needing a new etiquette. _Why_ is it needed? Why should anyone, straight or gay, be expected to cater to bigots? ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-gay-men-women-have-a-moral-or-ethical-duty-to-come-out-of-the-closet/620564/29 "2012-05-03T11:55:59Z")
Same reason all etiquette is needed; to let common social interaction go more smoothly and pleasantly. Let’s take the little scenario I sketched, it is common enough. How would a gay person prefer this played out? Would he/she prefer to be vague about his partners sex for as long as possible? But what should he/she prefer as to the attitude/reaction of the other person who clearly assumed they used the correct gender pronoun when they didn’t? What is the correct answer when a straight person asks a gay man: - “Oh, your partner loves lobster? My wife, too! Does she like _Mikeys Lobster Shack_ down by the bay?” Should the gay man answer: -“Mikeys? No, I think all their lobster is frozen. I wouldn’t go there. Try Fred’s instead.It is a little further down the highway” or “Oh, David knows more about lobster restaurants then I do. He’s the gourmet of us two. I’ll ask him when I get home” . ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-gay-men-women-have-a-moral-or-ethical-duty-to-come-out-of-the-closet/620564/30 "2012-05-03T12:08:48Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Same reason all etiquette is needed; to let common social interaction go more smoothly and pleasantly. There is nothing pleasant about your suggestion that a person should censor their loved ones out of any discussion. > [@](#): > > Let’s take the little scenario I sketched, it is common enough. > > How would a gay person prefer this played out? Would he/she prefer to be vague about his partners sex for as long as possible? But what should he/she prefer as to the attitude/reaction of the other person who clearly assumed they used the correct gender pronoun when they didn’t? > > What is the correct answer when a straight person asks a gay man: > > - “Oh, your partner loves lobster? My wife, too! Does she like _Mikeys Lobster Shack_ down by the bay?” > > Should the gay man answer: > -“Mikeys? No, I think all their lobster is frozen. I wouldn’t go there. Try Fred’s instead.It is a little further down the highway” > > or > > “Oh, David knows more about lobster restaurants then I do. He’s the gourmet of us two. I’ll ask him when I get home” . The correct answer, again, is whichever they damn well please. I would expect that they would prefer the latter, for the same reason lots of people like talking about their loved ones, but I would not mandate it. You are telling them that there is only one correct choice, that it is a _faux pas_ to talk naturally about their loved ones. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-gay-men-women-have-a-moral-or-ethical-duty-to-come-out-of-the-closet/620564/31 "2012-05-03T12:35:18Z")
On the contrary, **Grumman**. I would much prefer it my gay conversation partner would give the answer about his partner Dave being the lobster expert. In that case, I would have about a second in which I had to change converational gears, and after that I could just make a mental note for future chit chat, like pleasantly asking where he and Dave plan to vacation next summer. Because for me it would become increasingly awkward if I found out later on that I had wrongly assumed Dave was a Daisy all the time. I would assume I would have made things awkward for my co-worker, I would maybe feel a little insulted that the other would not have trusted me not to be a bigot, etc, etc. Uneccessary awkwardness all around. And that is why we need an etiquette rule. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-gay-men-women-have-a-moral-or-ethical-duty-to-come-out-of-the-closet/620564/32 "2012-05-03T12:36:51Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > On the contrary, **Grumman**. I would much prefer it my gay conversation partner would give the answer about his partner Dave being the lobster expert. Oh, so it’s only a _faux pas_ if you’re straight? Is that what you’re saying? ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-gay-men-women-have-a-moral-or-ethical-duty-to-come-out-of-the-closet/620564/33 "2012-05-03T12:44:12Z")
But I can imagine that many gay persons have come to dread that moment when their non-bigoted conversation partner switches mental gears from Daisy to Dave. Especially if they try and cover their awkwardness by well meaning remarks that make things even worse. Like: “Oh, I didn’t know you were gay. You don’t _look_ gay”. :: cringe:: But I guess that is just the price anyone has to pay if they differ from what their conversational partner assumes to be the default. “Oh, your partner is a man?” is not much different from “Oh, you don’t go to church?” or “Oh, you don’t have kids?” or “Oh, you home-school?”. As long as your conversation partner isn’t bigoted and just has to make that little mental switch, it would be gracious and mannerly of the gay/atheist/childfree/homeschooler not take offence when none is meant. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-gay-men-women-have-a-moral-or-ethical-duty-to-come-out-of-the-closet/620564/34 "2012-05-03T12:45:28Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Oh, so it’s only a _faux pas_ if you’re straight? Is that what you’re saying? Huh? How do you mean? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-gay-men-women-have-a-moral-or-ethical-duty-to-come-out-of-the-closet/620564/35 "2012-05-03T13:07:49Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Huh? How do you mean? You asked the question, “Should everyone, not just gay people, go out of their way to avoid giving off such clues as to the sex of their partner in social conversations?” and since then you have been arguing the answer is “yes”. But now you’re saying that the answer for gay people is “no”. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-gay-men-women-have-a-moral-or-ethical-duty-to-come-out-of-the-closet/620564/36 "2012-05-03T13:36:41Z")
> [@](#): > > You asked the question, “Should everyone, not just gay people, go out of their way to avoid giving off such clues as to the sex of their partner in social conversations?” and since then you have been arguing the answer is “yes”. Ah, I think we misunderstood. IMHO, I have been arguing the opposite. I think that everyone, not just gay people, should gently correct incorrect assumptions in social conversations. Even if that means coming out. Of course, it is up to the gay person to asess the risks and benefits of doing so. If I were a gay guy , I wouldn’t mention my partner Dave when I’m at the proverbial Redneck Straw Fighting Festival. Or to frail and bible thumping, eighty year old Great Aunt Edna. But in the case I mentioned, of a well intentioned straight co-worker, where social chit-chat is indicated, I would appreciate it if gays would casually mention the sex of their social partners. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-gay-men-women-have-a-moral-or-ethical-duty-to-come-out-of-the-closet/620564/37 "2012-05-03T15:01:16Z")
Also, it depends on what you mean by “out.” Most people know I am (was?) transgender (-ed?), though it is not something I mention unless I am asked. I’d never \*lie \*about it, but I also never bring it up in conversation. I have no idea if my coworkers know or not; I doubt any of them would raise an eyebrow. I have friends I have known for 20 or 30 years who probably don’t know, just because the subject has never come up and I don’t see it as an important part of my life, really. I have other friends who do know, because they asked, or the subject did come up and I mentioned it. I don’t mention it in my author’s bio–not because I am ashamed, or afraid of losing readers, but because it is not pertinent. So, what does “out” consist of? ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-gay-men-women-have-a-moral-or-ethical-duty-to-come-out-of-the-closet/620564/38 "2012-05-03T15:04:11Z")
Like I said, I would like it if gays gave hints as to the sex of their partners. And anyone giving them trouble about it is a bigot. But anyone who is a little awkward for about a second or so should not be ginve too hard a time for it. I also considered an alternative, where everyone, gays and straights, would always be vague about the sex of their partner or even if they had a social partner. Wedding rings (or even engagement or commitment rings) would be a no-no. The words spouse, wife and husband would be banned, and everyone could use the word partner and the [singular “they” as pronoun](http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun). Such a use of language would be a great change from today. But it would be necessary if we really would want LGTB people to talk about their partners _without having to come out._ Of course that would be of little use once they would want to introduce said partners, but we can only solve one problem at a time. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-gay-men-women-have-a-moral-or-ethical-duty-to-come-out-of-the-closet/620564/39 "2012-05-03T15:08:39Z")
And in \*\*Eve’\*\*s case, it doesn’'t have to come up at all. Perhaps only to sexual partners. But to everyone else, Eve looks like a woman and acts like a woman, so, no need to correct any assumptions. But as long as straights still assume that most people are just like them, they will make incorrect assumptions. What I have debated is the most pleasant etiquette to deal with correcting such assumptions in social conversations. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-gay-men-women-have-a-moral-or-ethical-duty-to-come-out-of-the-closet/620564/40 "2012-05-03T15:18:31Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Live your lives, straights! Go make babies or visit the nudie bar or Chili’s or whatever! But I dislike children, detest Chili’s, and always find nudie bars unbelievably awkward. (My parents taught me it’s rude to stare, which rather defeats the purpose). Can’t I just go to the symphony or cook a nice tofu curry instead? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-gay-men-women-have-a-moral-or-ethical-duty-to-come-out-of-the-closet/620564.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-gay-men-women-have-a-moral-or-ethical-duty-to-come-out-of-the-closet/620564.md?page=3)