### Author:  [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-men-need-women-to-be-the-best-people-they-can-be/578812/61 "2011-04-18T21:27:22Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Do adult men need women to be the best people they can be?
Yes.
---
### Author:  [@TheWhoToTheWhatNow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheWhoToTheWhatNow)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2011, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-men-need-women-to-be-the-best-people-they-can-be/578812/62 "2011-04-18T21:28:53Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#):
>
> I said this so that you would understand how you were coming off to a lot of people.
Don’t worry, I know how I come off. 🙂 But it’s not my fault that people don’t read what I’m actually writing or put beliefs on me that I don’t have.
> [@olivesmarch4th](#):
>
> This is a response that indicates I was correct in understanding your position
No it doesn’t. If I had started with “That’s true..but–” it would.
> [@olivesmarch4th](#):
>
> and that you felt it was a reasonable position to take based on your own experience. In fact, you seemed upset that I would declare it untrue.
I’m upset that people are saying I’m saying things I’m not, and labelling me as some inexperienced unenlightened moron. I would be just as upset if people were doing it to someone else.
> [@olivesmarch4th](#):
>
> If I’m wrong, and you don’t think all women are motivated by the same or similar things and all men are motivated by the same or similar other things, then by all means, explain what you do think.
Okay: I think a lot of women are motivated by similar things, and a lot of men are motivated by similar things. Which is what I said from the start. Again there’s this “all (gender) are this” thing that I’m not saying.
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#):
>
> Why? I don’t gauge desperation by going to a dating site. I look at the world around me. Most men have managed to be married at least once, most men are currently in some kind of relationship, and few men die virgins. I don’t see how you could dispute any this.
Not sure what relevance this is. If the discussion is whether men tend to have lower standards than women, are you saying only high-quality people get married? I honestly don’t know why you wrote that bit.
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#):
>
> Really, I’m curious what you really think dating site statistics is supposed to tell you about the real world?
Single people are looking for dates. Single people looking for dates are on dating sites. Single people looking for dates on dating sites act, in very large groups, in very different ways based on gender lines on those dating sites.
I don’t see why you would discard this as irrelevant.
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#):
>
> There are desperate women on there too, but consider, for a minute, that desperate women do not necessarily behave the same way that desperate men do. Which might be why you don’t find them on dating sites to same degree you men.
Again I don’t see how this is relevant. I really don’t know why you’ve de-railed this into a discussion on desperation.
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#):
>
> Yes, I do. There’s actually a support group for these people. It’s called Everybody. Never heard of it?
You said earlier:
[QUOTE=you with the face]
For one, your pronouncements about how desperate men are just don’t even make sense, but you think they do because you can’t see beyond the IT/barfly crowd that comprises your world. How many doctors, lawyers, car mechanics, starving artists, plumbers, soldiers, political staffers, truck drivers, police officers, EMTs, assistant principals, college professors, store managers, contractors, concession stand attendants, and \ meet this stereotypical loser profile that is apparently the antichrist of your version of masculinity?
[/QUOTE]
I read that as you saying those people in the professions you listed (outside of the “IT/barfly crowd”) are different. But you’ve just said now that they’re exactly the same because they’re everybody. So you’re saying the “IT/barfly” crowd represents everybody else.
[QUOTE=you with the face]
Seriously, most people aren’t in their dream jobs and regularly put up with crap to pay the bills. Most people aren’t losers though
[/QUOTE]
Aren’t they? Will you bring your kids up to believe they shouldn’t strive for anything and they should accept that their lives will be crap? Or will you want them to be successful high self-esteem people who get what they want in life? If you’d encourage the latter, then aren’t you implying the former are losers in comparison?
[QUOTE=you with the face]
and still manage to score and maintain relationships, and function like everyone else does.
[/QUOTE]
I specifically said earlier that plenty of low self-esteem people get married. Why are you arguing with things I’m not saying? I’d like to stop having to defend myself against stuff you’re putting in my mouth.
- TWTTWN
---
### Author:  [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2011, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-men-need-women-to-be-the-best-people-they-can-be/578812/63 "2011-04-18T21:28:59Z")
> [@TheWhoToTheWhatNow](#):
>
> Arrogant or true? My hobby is pickup and socializing so I go out with the express purpose of starting conversations with a ton of random strangers wherever I am and discussing male/female dynamics with them because I find it interesting subject matter.
>
> - TWTTWN
It’s one thing to talk about your own experiences and let others draw conclusions from those. To say to someone else “I suspect I’m more experienced than you” is flat-out arrogance, and there’s no way you can know it’s true. Given how much talking you profess to do, I’m surprised you don’t realize that.
Anyway, yes, we’re going off the rails here.
---
### Author:  [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-men-need-women-to-be-the-best-people-they-can-be/578812/64 "2011-04-18T21:46:01Z")
> [@TheWhoToTheWhatNow](#):
>
> I suspect I’ve interacted with more people and a wider variety of people from a wider variety of walks of life in a year than you have in your lifetime. It’s my hobby, after all. 🙂
>
> Feel free to mock me, but I think you should re-read what you write before you Submit it…
No offense, but I don’t see “suave charming pickup artist”. I see a young guy who based on his posts spent a large portion of his younger years as or surrounded by socially awkward “IT types”. And now after years of studying the “art of the pick up” has all the same over-enthusiastic smug arrogance of an IT dork, just channelled into a new hobby. Doesn’t make you come across as “alpha”. Just as a bit of a jerk and pretty clueless.
No one is forcing you to become some sort of Homer Simpson father or get saddled up with some harpy who hen pecks you to death. If a relationship is a drain on you than you should end it. On that I think we are in agreement. But this “it’s my way or the highway” attitude I see from not necessarily from you but other guys I know IRL where they think that they can do and act however they want want and therefore actively seek out women who will enable that is a bit ridiculous. Part of becoming a mature adult male is having to make mature adult choices. Many of those choices will be mutually exclusive. You might have the 9 to 5 job to be with your family more, but you might not make as much money. You might want to be single your entire life pursuing your own interests with single-minded purpose, but you will find your close friends may have less time or inclination to hang out with you as their family activities take priority.
---
### Author:  [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-men-need-women-to-be-the-best-people-they-can-be/578812/65 "2011-04-18T21:52:52Z")
> [@TheWhoToTheWhatNow](#):
>
> If the OP’s question had been “can a woman enhance a man’s life and bring out the best in him?” I’d have posted “Sure.” But the question implies that by default adult men are incomplete and need women.
>
> - TWTTWN
Unless you think men and women are interchangeable, the woman is going to bring something to the table that the man lacks.
A guy may have completely self-actualized and still have weaknesses. It’s pretty unlikely that he can’t find someone that provides attributes he lacks, though he might decide the social cost isn’t worth it.
Most guys “need” a long term relationship with a woman if they want to reproduce and contribute to the success of the offspring. It also makes some economic sense as well.
I’ve never met the “complete” guy. I’ve met a ton that have decided that what they have completed is the only important stuff.
---
### Author:  [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2011, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-men-need-women-to-be-the-best-people-they-can-be/578812/66 "2011-04-18T21:53:14Z")
And the Golden Post-Parsing Award for threads this month goes to…this thread! 😃
---
### Author:  [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-men-need-women-to-be-the-best-people-they-can-be/578812/67 "2011-04-18T21:56:02Z")
> [@TheWhoToTheWhatNow](#):
>
> Not sure what relevance this is. If the discussion is whether men tend to have lower standards than women, are you saying only high-quality people get married? I honestly don’t know why you wrote that bit.
I’m saying I say dispute this notion that you forth earlier:
> [@](#):
>
> …women tend to have an idea of what they want (whether those things are realistic or not), but men these days are going “I’ll take anything with tits that smiles at me and accepts me for who I am because I’m pretty worthless and don’t really have any standards”.
I’m not saying these men don’t exist at all, but acting as though there’s an epidemic of them who are _this_ desperate really makes me laugh. It seems like a convenient carnard that permits you to feel superior over those who haven’t figured out the game like you have. If you’re surrounded by men who feel this way, it’s probably a better reflection of the company you keep than that of larger society. Most men in my circles are not like this at all.
> [@](#):
>
> Single people are looking for dates. Single people looking for dates are on dating sites. Single people looking for dates on dating sites act, in very large groups, in very different ways based on gender lines on those dating sites.
>
> I don’t see why you would discard this as irrelevant.
Because there’s no reason to believe men and women are necessarily going to be identical in where they go and how they go about finding mates online? Because we’re not just talking about single people, but people in general?
> [@](#):
>
> Again I don’t see how this is relevant. I really don’t know why you’ve de-railed this into a discussion on desperation.
See my response above.
> [@](#):
>
> I read that as you saying those people in the professions you listed (outside of the “IT/barfly crowd”) are different. But you’ve just said now that they’re exactly the same because they’re everybody. So you’re saying the “IT/barfly” crowd represents everybody else.
I’m saying you’re fixated on a type a guy–a guy who doesn’t exhibit alph-male characterstics that supposedly define an attractive male, who is desperate in the way you described above. It’s easy to talk about men in this way when your reference point is a stereotype about IT geeks and bar flies; but most men aren’t IT geeks and bar flies.
---
### Author:  [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-men-need-women-to-be-the-best-people-they-can-be/578812/68 "2011-04-18T22:03:16Z")
> [@TheWhoToTheWhatNow](#):
>
> Okay: I think a lot of women are motivated by similar things, and a lot of men are motivated by similar things.
This seems much more reasonable than the position I thought you were representing. I don’t know if I agree, but then I’m pretty cautious about ascribing general personality traits to males or females because I think it can be incredibly limiting to individuals and damaging to society as whole.
I get that you’re feeling attacked and my intent wasn’t to make you feel that way. I only brought it up because I thought a productive discussion could come out of it.
---
### Author:  [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-men-need-women-to-be-the-best-people-they-can-be/578812/69 "2011-04-18T22:13:17Z")
> [@msmith537](#):
>
> You might want to be single your entire life pursuing your own interests with single-minded purpose, but you will find your close friends may have less time or inclination to hang out with you as their family activities take priority.
When that happens, he’ll assume that they have been corralled into a life they never wanted by the temptation of easy sex from more goal-focused women: it couldn’t be that they legitimately prefer that life. Of course, that view will be strengthened by the fact that his buddies will say things like “man, I am so jealous of your life” or, when they turn down invitations, they will say things like “I’d love to, but I can’t, because my wife wants me to blah blah blah.” And those things will be somewhat true, but not the whole truth: the whole truth for most people is a complex tangle of choices gladly made mixed with half-hearted regrets. Add to that the desire not to sound like a jerk (“Sorry, man, I’d rather hang out with my kids”), and you could easily think everyone who is settled down regrets it all the time.
---
### Author:  [@TheWhoToTheWhatNow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheWhoToTheWhatNow)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-men-need-women-to-be-the-best-people-they-can-be/578812/70 "2011-04-18T22:27:59Z")
> [@manda jo](#):
>
> when that happens, he’ll assume that they have been corralled into a life they never wanted by the temptation of easy sex from more goal-focused women: It couldn’t be that they legitimately prefer that life.
> [@me](#):
>
> if a guy wants to be married and have the white-picket fence, that’s awesome, it’s not my thing but i fully support him because he knows what he wants.
- twttwn
---
### Author:  [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-men-need-women-to-be-the-best-people-they-can-be/578812/71 "2011-04-18T22:39:27Z")
> [@TheWhoToTheWhatNow](#):
>
> If anything, I’ve found women will hold a guy back. I can’t be the only one who knows guys who had dreams of being a rockstar (catch-all phrase there, basically making a career out of their statistically-unlikely-to-be-profitable hobby/passion), or travelling the world, or working on that dream project/hobby, or living in that dream location, or owning that dream possession (car, boat, etc.), who put that all on hold because their girl told them to settle down and be realistic (since she wants stability/security), or their girl didn’t want them to go on that dream adventure because it’s too dangerous, or their girl didn’t want to move away from her family/job so he stayed put, or who won’t let him invest his money in that thing he’s always wanted because it’s silly to her to “waste” that money…besides, they need that money for the ridiculously extravagant wedding she wants.
You just have to find a woman who wants the same things you want out of life. Out of your long list, the only thing I want is to travel the world, and as it happens my wife loves travelling also. So we’re completely compatible that way. Beyond that, I’ve become much more productive at work since we got married.
---
### Author:  [@TheWhoToTheWhatNow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheWhoToTheWhatNow)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2011, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-men-need-women-to-be-the-best-people-they-can-be/578812/72 "2011-04-18T22:41:48Z")
> [@suranyi](#):
>
> You just have to find a woman who wants the same things you want out of life.
Agreed. And to do that you have to know what you want out of life. That’s basically what my posts before the big derail said. 🙂
- TWTTWN
---
### Author:  [@MaddyStrut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaddyStrut)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-men-need-women-to-be-the-best-people-they-can-be/578812/73 "2011-04-18T23:06:27Z")
> [@TheWhoToTheWhatNow](#):
>
> I don’t know, do you know any cops, doctors, lawyers, teachers, contractors, concession stand employees, etc. working in locations they don’t want to, or hours they don’t want to, or for less pay than they want, etc. etc.?
I know lots. We all do. As mentioned, that describes a very large percentage of people in the world: married, single, whatever.
Do _you_ know any super _successful_ people? I mean those at the very top of their professions? Like the top 1%?
I ask because I do, and the thought that they’d have a spouse who held them back is laughable. These people don’t let anything hold them back. Not rejection, criticism, failure, anything. They would never have a spouse who wasn’t 100% supportive.
Yeah, I know people who think they’d have been some super star if it weren’t for their spouse, bad luck, or whatever excuse they have. The fact is they don’t have the same sort of personality as those at the very, very top.
But that doesn’t mean you can’t be pretty darned successful and mostly happy even if you’re not that person. Most of us don’t become super stars and do quite well anyway. Among those I know who are pretty successful and happy, most are married. Then again, most _people_ I know are married. So I can’t really draw any conclusion from that!
---
### Author:  [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-men-need-women-to-be-the-best-people-they-can-be/578812/74 "2011-04-18T23:09:28Z")
My point is that a lot of happily married guys will whine to their single friends because they think that’s expected or the relationship isn’t really set up for “let me tell you about the funny thing my kid did” or because they think “my wife won’t let me” is somehow a nicer thing to say than “I don’t want to”. Others whine to their single friends because it’s the only safe outlet for those feelings–but it doesn’t mean those feelings dominate their day to day lives.
---
### Author:  [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-men-need-women-to-be-the-best-people-they-can-be/578812/75 "2011-04-18T23:16:47Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#):
>
> I do have world-shattering cramps, though, with barfing! Just no mood swings or anything leading up to the big day. Always a problem in my younger days when I was completely irregular, cycle-wise. A bit of warning would have been nice before the vomiting started. :mad:
I hope you’re married. Men are great at picking up snacks and handing you hot water bottles.
---
### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [April 18, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-men-need-women-to-be-the-best-people-they-can-be/578812/76 "2011-04-18T23:22:39Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#):
>
> I hope you’re married. Men are great at picking up snacks and handing you hot water bottles.
I was and I will be again soon-ish, but it’s Seasonale (and Depo, in my younger days) that has saved my sanity.
---
### Author:  [@TheWhoToTheWhatNow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheWhoToTheWhatNow)
#### Post date: [April 19, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-men-need-women-to-be-the-best-people-they-can-be/578812/77 "2011-04-19T00:46:38Z")
> [@suranyi](#):
>
> I ask because I do, and the thought that they’d have a spouse who held them back is laughable.
Agreed. People who know what they want don’t let anything hold them back. Most people don’t seem to know what they want so they get held back or go down the wrong path (unhappily married).
- TWTTWN
---
### Author:  [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)
#### Post date: [April 19, 2011, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-men-need-women-to-be-the-best-people-they-can-be/578812/78 "2011-04-19T05:56:45Z")
> [@TheWhoToTheWhatNow](#):
>
> Agreed. People who know what they want don’t let anything hold them back. Most people don’t seem to know what they want so they get held back or go down the wrong path (unhappily married).
>
> - TWTTWN
Just to let you know, you didn’t attribute the quote correctly. I didn’t say what you quoted; **MaddyStrut** did.
---
### Author:  [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)
#### Post date: [April 19, 2011, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-men-need-women-to-be-the-best-people-they-can-be/578812/79 "2011-04-19T14:10:51Z")
> [@TheWhoToTheWhatNow](#):
>
> Agreed. People who know what they want don’t let anything hold them back. Most people don’t seem to know what they want so they get held back or go down the wrong path (unhappily married).
>
> - TWTTWN
Or unhappily celibate. Or unhappily sleeping around. There are many ways to be unhappy and I doubt marriage is disproportionately represented among them.
The general point you’re arguing is probably correct - it’s better to set your own goals for your own reasons, rather than try to do what you think other people want. And if we only purused self-actualisation rather than social capital maybe we’d all be happier. But the latter behaviour is incredibly common in all walks of life - children try to impress parents; cadets try to impress drill sergeants; new graduates try to impress their first boss; young men try to impress their peer group. Nor is it a bad thing, in fact, for children or soldiers, for example, to be given an ideal to live up to (whether that’s sharing with others or never leaving a man behind). It would be a very rare person who could set their own definitions of success without any reference to what their superiors, peers or (potential) loved ones value; a still rarer one who found those definitions actually helped them get ahead in the world.
I’ve even heard tell that there are socially inept young men who master a whole raft of social skills for the initial purpose of increasing their desirability to women. Some of them may internalise this goal as being one of self-improvement once they’ve had some success, but even among this group I believe there are some who quantify their mastery of life by their ability to get phone numbers from chance-met women.
---
### Author:  [@TheWhoToTheWhatNow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheWhoToTheWhatNow)
#### Post date: [April 19, 2011, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-adult-men-need-women-to-be-the-best-people-they-can-be/578812/80 "2011-04-19T17:01:24Z")
Sorry for the bad quoting!
> [@Stanislaus](#):
>
> The general point you’re arguing is probably correct - it’s better to set your own goals for your own reasons, rather than try to do what you think other people want. And if we only purused self-actualisation rather than social capital maybe we’d all be happier. But the latter behaviour is incredibly common in all walks of life - children try to impress parents; cadets try to impress drill sergeants; new graduates try to impress their first boss; young men try to impress their peer group. Nor is it a bad thing, in fact, for children or soldiers, for example, to be given an ideal to live up to (whether that’s sharing with others or never leaving a man behind). It would be a very rare person who could set their own definitions of success without any reference to what their superiors, peers or (potential) loved ones value; a still rarer one who found those definitions actually helped them get ahead in the world.
Thanks for actually making a good point instead of just throwing completely uncalled for overly-condescending snark based on ignorant stereotypes. I think this is a good point. Your goals can be flexible and change through your life as you learn about yourself (like the kid who decides the army is what he wants). Taking it further you could say the other cadets and sergeants etc in his group help him be his best too because they all have the same (if more minor) goal of turning him into a good soldier.
So then the OPs question could be reduced even further to “do people need other people to be their best?”. Can you be your best with no external influences? Probably not in team sports or jobs that require working together, but could you become a pro-golfer by winging it and studying on your own? Or a pro poker player by memorizing the odds-calculating math involved? A pro body-builder?
Like I say I think the flaw was just in the initial question itself making it a gender thing and using “need” vs “enhance”.
> [@Stanislaus](#):
>
> I’ve even heard tell that there are socially inept young men who master a whole raft of social skills for the initial purpose of increasing their desirability to women. Some of them may internalise this goal as being one of self-improvement once they’ve had some success, but even among this group I believe there are some who quantify their mastery of life by their ability to get phone numbers from chance-met women.
oh, there’s the throwing completely uncalled for overly-condescending snark based on ignorant stereotypes bit. It sure would be easier to discuss stuff if people didn’t add this kind of thing. I’m never the first one to start being a dick, I just say my opinion like everyone else and then someone jumps on the “lol well you admitted you’re a PUA so here’s a bunch of witty zings insulting you and casting judgements on your lifestyle and as a person, even though you haven’t actually been mean to me”. I didn’t bring up my arrogant (but true) point that I have more experience until someone else condescendingly told me i don’t know how the real world works with grown-up men and grown-up women.
- TWTTWN
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