# Do African-Americans have extra energy in their muscles? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 12, 2015, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-african-americans-have-extra-energy-in-their-muscles/724906 "2015-07-12T01:35:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-african-americans-have-extra-energy-in-their-muscles/724906/101 "2015-07-13T22:06:54Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > This canard just won’t die, will it? > > When white people “dominated” basketball there was massive institutional racism. Black players played in their own leagues. In the face of desegregation some owners didn’t want black players anyway because they didn’t think white audiences would want to watch a team with so many black players. It became clear pretty fast that if you wanted to compete you had to get black players because guys like Wilt, Russell, Oscar, etc. were dominating to an extent that won’t ever be seen again. The NBA was majority black in just a couple years, by the end of the '60s. > > You could get white players to dominate again, just ban all the black players. Who wouldn’t want to watch a league filled with Kevin Loves and Kyle Korvers? And Andy mentioned the early 20th century and Jews… ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-african-americans-have-extra-energy-in-their-muscles/724906/102 "2015-07-13T22:09:59Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > How would that model be of any use? Reality shows that different groups based on relatedness have different characteristics. To assume that these different characteristics have no real world advantages in real world situations or activities is incorrect. I’m agreeing with you, **octopus**. It seems to me that the loudest voices in threads discussing any possible genetic difference between races or ethnic groups sometimes make statements about population genetics that are just unfounded. That program can show how easily large changes in gene frequency can occur over a short period of time with minimal selective pressure given the right conditions. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-african-americans-have-extra-energy-in-their-muscles/724906/103 "2015-07-13T22:17:01Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > This canard just won’t die, will it? > > When white people “dominated” basketball there was massive institutional racism. Black players played in their own leagues. In the face of desegregation some owners didn’t want black players anyway because they didn’t think white audiences would want to watch a team with so many black players. It became clear pretty fast that if you wanted to compete you had to get black players because guys like Wilt, Russell, Oscar, etc. were dominating to an extent that won’t ever be seen again. The NBA was majority black in just a couple years, by the end of the '60s. > > You could get white players to dominate again, just ban all the black players. Who wouldn’t want to watch a league filled with Kevin Loves and Kyle Korvers? What does this have to do with the domination of Jews? Are you saying Jews are really good at basketball, just not quite as good as black people? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-african-americans-have-extra-energy-in-their-muscles/724906/104 "2015-07-13T22:42:19Z")
If the OP wants to talk about “extra energy in their muscles” wouldn’t you say that about white people? Pretty sure white people dominate strong men competitions. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What does this have to do with the domination of Jews? Are you saying Jews are really good at basketball, just not quite as good as black people? I lump Jews and white people together. They were scrubs then, and they’re scrubs now. The point is their domination occurred in an environment where the competition was a joke. As soon as it wasn’t they got destroyed. That’s why they don’t dominate basketball anymore. It’s not like they lost interest and black people showed up to fill a void. They did everything in their power to prevent fair competition. Better examples of shifting cultural preferences have to exist, if that’s the point trying to be demonstrated (I’m not sure what other point there is, maybe I’m missing something about why people love this canard so much). Maybe black people losing interest in baseball, but I don’t follow baseball. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-african-americans-have-extra-energy-in-their-muscles/724906/105 "2015-07-13T22:46:21Z")
Yugoslavia and Spain won 4 of the last 7 FIBA World Championships 😉 ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-african-americans-have-extra-energy-in-their-muscles/724906/106 "2015-07-13T22:58:33Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Nope. It is, instead, demonstrating an understanding of the statistical science of population genetics. > > The centuries of slavery were simply too short a time to have made a meaningful change in the genetic make-up of the enslaved population. > > It’s like a creationist demanding to see a cat change into a dog. It doesn’t happen over observable time-periods. Significant evolutionary change requires more generations than slavery lasted. > > I also pointed out that, during the period of slavery, there were many isolated regions of reproduction. Slaves in New Orleans would not have mixed genes with slaves from Kentucky in any useful numbers. The genetic distribution of all slaves could not possibly have been affected in the same way. > > The fantasy is a simple-minded, even childish degradation of the reality. > > (Joseph Goebbels was opposed to the Holocaust – the putting of massive numbers of Jews to death in forced labor camps – because, if the weak died and the strong survived, the program would be breeding “super-Jews.” Goebbels was an idiot.) No one is arguing for what you are arguing against. You do understand the difference between all and some? No one is saying all American blacks that are descended from slaves are clones. Some people are saying that there was some impact on the genes of that population during the times of slavery and that there may be some variance in the distribution of that subset that other groups don’t have. You make it seem like the OP is stating that all X \> Y in a particular endeavor. When in fact it ought to be read that the distribution of X is dissimilar form Y and the extreme members up in the 4th standard deviation of X outperform, marginally but consistently, the members in the 4th standard deviation of Y. The assertion, again, isn’t turning mushrooms into beets in 3 generations. It’s that already significantly different group being subjected to extraordinary and perhaps directed pressures have in the extremes a 0.05s advantage in the 200m. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-african-americans-have-extra-energy-in-their-muscles/724906/107 "2015-07-13T23:04:09Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > I’m agreeing with you, **octopus**. > > It seems to me that the loudest voices in threads discussing any possible genetic difference between races or ethnic groups sometimes make statements about population genetics that are just unfounded. > > That program can show how easily large changes in gene frequency can occur over a short period of time with minimal selective pressure given the right conditions. Understood. My beef with that crowd is the claim that immeasurable effects or variables that are hopelessly entangled have no impact. Or that similarities in averages means distributions are equivalent. Perhaps the horrors of forced eugenics, institutionalized racism and genocide, etc that discussions on human potential and genetics have led to in the not too distant past and arguably the present explains the doublethink. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-african-americans-have-extra-energy-in-their-muscles/724906/108 "2015-07-13T23:10:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What does this have to do with the domination of Jews? Are you saying Jews are really good at basketball, just not quite as good as black people? Team sports are harder to analyze than “pure” sports like running, jumping, swimming. Basketball also was more niche back then. Now basketball has a global appeal and attracts some of the best athletes from many countries. Another problem with team sports is that some of the team sports that could have a dominant set of players but don’t is the appeal or cultural differences between sports. So saying for example X is best at cricket might be true only because Y and Z are playing basketball or soccer when Y and Z might actually dominate X in cricket. Running and swimming don’t seem to have those problems. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-african-americans-have-extra-energy-in-their-muscles/724906/109 "2015-07-13T23:13:19Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Team sports are harder to analyze than “pure” sports like running, jumping, swimming. Basketball also was more niche back then. Now basketball has a global appeal and attracts some of the best athletes from many countries. Another problem with team sports is that some of the team sports that could have a dominant set of players but don’t is the appeal or cultural differences between sports. So saying for example X is best at cricket might be true only because Y and Z are playing basketball or soccer when Y and Z might actually dominate X in cricket. Running and swimming don’t seem to have those problems. This is all fine, I just don’t see how it’s evidence that current sports record outcomes are necessarily somehow perfectly representative of some genetic hierarchy of inborn talent. Sure, it’s possible, but until I see the genes for various forms of athletic talent and their prevalence in various populations, I’ll assume that the cause of any apparent disparities is the same cause for various disparities throughout human history – culture and society. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-african-americans-have-extra-energy-in-their-muscles/724906/110 "2015-07-13T23:20:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is all fine, I just don’t see how it’s evidence that current sports record outcomes are necessarily somehow perfectly representative of some genetic hierarchy of inborn talent. I think most reasonable people would agree with this for the majority of sports. > [@](#): > > Sure, it’s possible, but until I see the genes for various forms of athletic talent and their prevalence in various populations, I’ll assume that the cause of any apparent disparities is the same cause for various disparities throughout human history – culture and society. That’s a legitimate point of view. I think it’s more likely that there is an immeasurable contribution from both nature and nurture. For example, no matter my culture or my society or my training, I am not ever going to be in the top 10,000 swimmers or runners and that’s because of my genes. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-african-americans-have-extra-energy-in-their-muscles/724906/111 "2015-07-13T23:35:38Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I am not ever going to be in the top 10,000 swimmers or runners and that’s because of my genes. Your \*individual \*genes, yes. But is it because of your skin color or ethnic background or geographic origin? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-african-americans-have-extra-energy-in-their-muscles/724906/112 "2015-07-13T23:42:31Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > For example, no matter my culture or my society or my training, I am not ever going to be in the top 10,000 swimmers or runners and that’s because of my genes. I disagree with your logic. How do you know that your genes are the issue? How do you know that you would not be in the top 10,000 swimmers or runners if you had been training for it, and individually focused on that goal, since childhood? I mean, if you’re actually an octupus, I can see where the genes would be a disadvantage in most sports (though you’d be a whiz at the Freestyle Camouflage). Assuming you’re human, though, I’d like a cite that your genes are a disadvantage. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-african-americans-have-extra-energy-in-their-muscles/724906/113 "2015-07-14T00:06:52Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Yugoslavia and Spain won 4 of the last 7 FIBA World Championships 😉 White people can be good at basketball because it’s a skill game. But good white players don’t deviate from the stereotypes. Steve Nash is one of the greatest point guards ever (defense aside), but he can’t jump over a phone book. Good white big guys like the Gasol brothers or Dirk are slow and play under the rim. You won’t find white versions of Jordan, Shaq, D-Rob, Wilt, Russell, LeBron, Vince Carter, Westbrook, and so on. One big untapped area of the world for bball talent is India, but they don’t care about it. A lot of bball fans were hyped up about the potential of a flood of Chinese talent over the last decade, but it never materialized despite a lot of interest in the sport over there and a decent training infrastructure. Yao Ming was about it and he succeeded in part because he was freakishly huge. So huge his body broke down from all the weight. Lin was American born and a flash in the pan at best. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-african-americans-have-extra-energy-in-their-muscles/724906/114 "2015-07-14T01:28:51Z")
On average, Americans who think of themselves as black have 24% European ancestry. 4% of Americans who think of themselves as white have some measurable African ancestry. While some of this comes from recent intermarriage and immigration, most of the first comes from slave owners raping female slaves and most of the second comes those whose parents were considered to be black realizing that they were light enough to appear to be 100% white, so they moved away, cut off all contact with relatives, and passed for white. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-african-americans-have-extra-energy-in-their-muscles/724906/115 "2015-07-14T03:43:26Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I disagree with your logic. How do you know that your genes are the issue? How do you know that you would not be in the top 10,000 swimmers or runners if you had been training for it, and individually focused on that goal, since childhood? > > I mean, if you’re actually an octupus, I can see where the genes would be a disadvantage in most sports (though you’d be a whiz at the Freestyle Camouflage). Assuming you’re human, though, I’d like a cite that your genes are a disadvantage. A cite? For my specific body? Let’s be real here. Let’s say my gene’s had me born with little T-rex arms or as a midget. You think I’d be winning a 100m race at the Olympics? No. Not everybody is going to be able to do the same thing no matter how had they try. If you are, for example a 120lb female or male, you will not beat the heavyweight male in boxing no matter how hard you tried or what you ate as a child. Genes matter. If we could do an experiment with 50 people and gave them the same training, diet, whatever than had them compete in a variety of tasks there would not be exact parity. I doubt that all results would even be close in a many different tasks. What is it about humans that makes their body structure immune to the laws of physics? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-african-americans-have-extra-energy-in-their-muscles/724906/116 "2015-07-14T04:38:24Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > A cite? For my specific body? Let’s be real here. Yes, let’s be real. We have a forum on this MB called IMHO. People solicit opinions in that forum. But this forum is called Great Debates, and you’re expected to back up any claims you make with a cite. If you can’t back up your claim, you can always withdraw it. But no one is going to accept your uncited claim in this forum. No one. So, it’s not our problem that you can’t back up your claim-- it’s your problem. You need to get real, not us. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-african-americans-have-extra-energy-in-their-muscles/724906/117 "2015-07-14T05:13:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yes, let’s be real. We have a forum on this MB called IMHO. People solicit opinions in that forum. But this forum is called Great Debates, and you’re expected to back up any claims you make with a cite. If you can’t back up your claim, you can always withdraw it. But no one is going to accept your uncited claim in this forum. No one. > > So, it’s not our problem that you can’t back up your claim-- it’s your problem. You need to get real, not us. Lol. So you claim. Answer this could you beat a prime Mike Tyson in boxing? Where’s your cite? As if a random quote from a random source is proof of anything… ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-african-americans-have-extra-energy-in-their-muscles/724906/118 "2015-07-14T05:58:30Z")
Seems like a pointless distraction, and I’ll side with **octopus** here. If he says he wouldn’t be a championship swimming because of his innate body-type, that’s likely true. Some people are natural linebackers, big and heavy and square and strong. Others are natural wide receivers, lithe and fast and agile. The only relevance to this thread is that pretty much all body types are pretty much similarly represented in pretty much most ethnic groups. Yes, Inuit are shorter and rounder, on the average, than Masai. But at the level of “blacks” and “whites,” nah. About the same proportions of linebackers and wide receivers in both groups. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-african-americans-have-extra-energy-in-their-muscles/724906/119 "2015-07-14T06:20:16Z")
You can’t really extrapolate performance in professional sports to physical characteristics of the races of the athletes. It’s a small, incredibly biased sample. That conversation is more like shooting the shit at a bar, which is fun, but shouldn’t be taken too seriously. If you really wanted to do a comparison you’d have to get a representative sample and screen for all the confounding variables and test them in simple activities like running, jumping, reaction time, balance, whatever. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-african-americans-have-extra-energy-in-their-muscles/724906/120 "2015-07-14T09:47:11Z")
Professional athletes are s self selected group of outliers. Currently, due to social and economic factors, a high percentage of black American youths see professional sports as a valid career path. White families are more likely to see high school or college sports as a hobby instead of as an audition because they see their children as having more choices. Personal anecdote : the captain of my high school football team became a lawyer and went into politics. He was able to fulfill his leadership ambitions and did not have the incentive to continue athletic training. I dare say that an economically disadvantaged kid would not have seen law school as a possibility and may well have gone into professional sports. Everyone has talents and aptitudes. Which ones are nurtured depends on the circumstances of a person’s life. To believe that a high proportion of African descended people in professional sports indicates something about their intrinsic abilities instead of their social situation is oversimplifying and somewhat racist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-african-americans-have-extra-energy-in-their-muscles/724906.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-african-americans-have-extra-energy-in-their-muscles/724906.md?page=7)