# Do ALL British and Irish people have Scandinavian ancestry? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 20, 2015, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-british-and-irish-people-have-scandinavian-ancestry/713181 "2015-02-20T08:04:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![protoboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/fbc32d/32.png) [@protoboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/protoboard)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-british-and-irish-people-have-scandinavian-ancestry/713181/1 "2015-02-20T08:04:40Z")
Do you think pretty much anyone from the UK or Ireland has at least a small amount of Norse heritage or only certain individuals? Not only did they rape and pillage but they also founded Dublin and ruled large parts of the UK at various times during the Middle Ages. So I would be surprised if the Norse influence on the genome of the Isles is pretty much non-existent, and not surprised if it was quite large. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-british-and-irish-people-have-scandinavian-ancestry/713181/2 "2015-02-20T08:19:42Z")
There is certainly a lot of Scandinavian influence but to be honest, we are a true mongrel nation. (And that is a good thing, hybrid vigour and all that.) Waves of immigration over thousands of years and hundreds of years at the centre of the trading world mean that I couldn’t tell you what sort of genetic heritage I have. I should imagine I’m a bit of everything. ---
**Author:** ![ticker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@ticker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ticker)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-british-and-irish-people-have-scandinavian-ancestry/713181/3 "2015-02-20T09:02:03Z")
Plenty of people from the UK will be able to trace all their ancestry to, as an example, the Indian sub-continent. It is a culturally and ethnically diverse nation. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-british-and-irish-people-have-scandinavian-ancestry/713181/4 "2015-02-20T09:59:39Z")
Seeing as virtually every Western European is a descendant of Charlemagne, then IMHO the probability that any native Brit or Irishman has at least some Scandinavian ancestry is at least 99%. Likewise anyone with any French, German, Polish, Russian, Italian, Balkan and probably Turkish ancestry. Do the math. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-british-and-irish-people-have-scandinavian-ancestry/713181/5 "2015-02-20T10:01:45Z")
It would be quite large (remembering that Norman ancestry would also be ultimately partly Scandinavian) but varied by region. And I’m not sure we should count rape as a huge factor, I doubt many women would actually keep the child of rape when they had other options. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-british-and-irish-people-have-scandinavian-ancestry/713181/6 "2015-02-20T10:43:11Z")
Well the Y chromosome of an early Norman would definitely be Norse, as they were Rent-A-Yobs to stop their relatives swamping the place. As for rape, I suspect that a female would be a bit miffed if she didn’t manage to snag a decent rapist - a viable survival strategy during an invasion. Mind you there were plenty of other early blends in Britain and Ireland, all quite eager to play the hide then harry trick on invaders - basically hide in the marshes and nick their livestock by night. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-british-and-irish-people-have-scandinavian-ancestry/713181/7 "2015-02-20T11:49:49Z")
I’m pretty sure that Idris Elba doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-british-and-irish-people-have-scandinavian-ancestry/713181/8 "2015-02-20T13:04:22Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > Do you think pretty much anyone from the UK or Ireland has at least a small amount of Norse heritage or only certain individuals? It seems that you are unaware of how many foreigners have moved to the UK in recent decades and recent centuries. See [Wikipedia: Modern immigration to the UK](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_immigration_to_the_United_Kingdom) > [@Wikipedia](#): > > Since 1945, immigration to the United Kingdom under British nationality law has been substantial, in particular from the Republic of Ireland and from the former colonies and territories of the British Empire such as India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, the Caribbean, South Africa, Kenya and Hong Kong. Other immigrants have come as asylum seekers, seeking protection as refugees under the United Nations 1951 Refugee Convention, or from member states of the European Union, exercising one of the European Union’s Four Freedoms. > > About 70% of the population increase between the 2001 and 2011 censuses was due to foreign-born immigration. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-british-and-irish-people-have-scandinavian-ancestry/713181/9 "2015-02-20T15:13:10Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It would be quite large (remembering that Norman ancestry would also be ultimately partly Scandinavian) but varied by region. And I’m not sure we should count rape as a huge factor, I doubt many women would actually keep the child of rape when they had other options. > [@ticker](#): > > Plenty of people from the UK will be able to trace all their ancestry to, as an example, the Indian sub-continent. It is a culturally and ethnically diverse nation. These. France is also a very diverse nation in terms of origins. Celts (Gauls, Bretons), Romans, a few Greeks, some Jews, Normans (Norse), Franks (i.e. Germans), some Berbers and Polynesians through the overseas French territories, and probably a smattering of a dozen other ethnicities. Stir _au français_, serves 65 million. The fact that France ended up primarily speaking a Romance language and the UK ended up primarily speaking a Germanic language doesn’t tell us a whole lot about the end mix except that perhaps the ethnicity whose language “won” may have had slightly more members and/or members with more political or social prestige. Spain is also a pretty diverse country. Celts (Celtiberians), Romans, Visigoths (Germanic peoples, related to Germans and Norse), Basques, Greeks, Berbers, Arabs, Jews. Also note the huge Norse influence on the English language. Most people know about the heavy French influence, but there is also a heavy Norse one as well. Just like there are Anglo/French doublets in English like child/infant (Fr. enfant, which can included preteens or even teens), cow/beef (Fr. boef), pig/pork, doom/judgment, first/primary, help/assist, and work/labor, there are Anglo/Norse doublets like hide/skin, shirt/skirt, and ship/skip. Note that in some cases, the words diverged in meaning in English after people realized that they didn’t need two words that meant exactly the same thing. There are even Norman French/(Modern) Parisian French doublets in English due to multiple borrowings - e.g. warden/guardian (both meaning a protector, just from different French dialects), and wage/gauge (both of them referring to some sort of measurement), ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-british-and-irish-people-have-scandinavian-ancestry/713181/10 "2015-02-20T15:53:54Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > It seems that you are unaware of how many foreigners have moved to the UK in recent decades and recent centuries. See [Wikipedia: Modern immigration to the UK](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_immigration_to_the_United_Kingdom) Would you consider someone who immigrated “from” somewhere else to be “from the UK”? Or are you being pedantic? ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-british-and-irish-people-have-scandinavian-ancestry/713181/11 "2015-02-20T15:56:39Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > Would you consider someone who immigrated “from” somewhere else to be “from the UK”? Or are you being pedantic? id consider their children and grandchildren and great grandchildren as being from the UK. There are large sections of the British populace whose genetic heritage owes nothing to any Scandinavians. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-british-and-irish-people-have-scandinavian-ancestry/713181/12 "2015-02-20T16:06:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Germanic & Scandinavian genetics > Another subject in the literature which has been widely discussed is whether genetics can show signs of Germanic invasions particularly in England. In a widely cited article through DNA testing, Weale et al. (2002) argued that the Y DNA data showed signs of a racial “apartheid” in Anglo-Saxon England. The signatures of Germanic influx to England is now widely accepted and has been shown in other studies, such as Capelli et al. (2003). The Capelli study, with higher sample numbers, gave much lower frequencies of “Germanic” genetic markers in England than did Weale. They describe such markers as typically ranging between 20% and 40%, with York forming an outlier at 60%. Most of Scotland showed a very similar genetic composition to England. North German/Danish genetic frequencies were indistinguishable, thus precluding any ability to distinguish between the genetic influence of the Anglo-Saxon source populations and the later, and better documented, influx of Danish Vikings.[8] > > A study into the Norwegian Viking ancestry of British people found that there is evidence of particular concentrations in several areas; especially in Lowland and Eastern Scotland - and the north sea islands Shetland and Orkney, Western Scotland and the Western Isles including Skye in Scotland, Anglesey in Wales, the Isle of Man, and the Wirral, Mid-Cheshire, West Lancashire and Cumbria in England.[9][10][11][12] > **[Genetic history of the British Isles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_British_Isles)** > > The genetic history of the British Isles is the subject of research within the larger field of human population genetics. It has developed in parallel with DNA testing technologies capable of identifying genetic similarities and differences between both modern and ancient populations. The conclusions of population genetics regarding the British Isles in turn draw upon and contribute to the larger field of understanding the history of the human occupation of the area, complementing work in lingu... ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-british-and-irish-people-have-scandinavian-ancestry/713181/13 "2015-02-20T21:39:03Z")
> [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > id consider their children and grandchildren and great grandchildren as being from the UK. There are large sections of the British populace whose genetic heritage owes nothing to any Scandinavians. Exactly my point. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![jiharmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@jiharmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jiharmer)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-british-and-irish-people-have-scandinavian-ancestry/713181/14 "2015-02-20T23:02:33Z")
Britain has been a melting pot for wave after wave of immigration for at least a thousand years. There are over three hundred languages spoken in London alone. Anyone who’s family has been here for more than a few generations almost certainly has a few surprises in their genome. As a few neo-nazis discovered a few years ago, to their horror, when they had their DNA analysed. Idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2015, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-british-and-irish-people-have-scandinavian-ancestry/713181/15 "2015-02-21T01:46:12Z")
> [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > id consider their children and grandchildren and great grandchildren as being from the UK. There are large sections of the British populace whose genetic heritage owes nothing to any Scandinavians. When you say “owes nothing,” you are probably forgetting how far east the Scandianvians went (Rus’, anyone?) and how many centuries ago that was. I think chances are decent that a 100% Bangladeshi family has at least one Norse ancestor, though how you’d prove it outside of mathematics or why you’d care is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2015, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-british-and-irish-people-have-scandinavian-ancestry/713181/16 "2015-02-21T03:55:15Z")
The Vikings were very fond of putting in at Warrenoint, which is very near my family seat. As my Great-Aunt put it: Oh yes, the they’d come down a’viking, and think they were winning, and think they were winning, and think they were winning. . . until suddenly they found themselves plowing an Irish field and taking the name of their Irish girl’s father. Sure they couldn’t resist a Mc\*\*\*\* woman any more than any other man can. :😉: On my family’s land there is a 3,000 year old souterrain, and inside was found the remains of a formal Viking sword. (The sort that would have been passed down from Father to Son, not a daily weapon.) So yeah, we kept a few, but more because we liked them. Of course, another distant cousin had the DNA read, and found he was part Ashkenazi Jew. So anything is possible, really. We are discussing islands, after all, and there was substantial sea trade, which leads to mixing of all sorts. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2015, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-british-and-irish-people-have-scandinavian-ancestry/713181/17 "2015-02-21T10:02:48Z")
> [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > id consider their children and grandchildren and great grandchildren as being from the UK. Exactly. If you were born here, you’re ‘from’ here. Any any other way to define the term ‘from’ quickly falls apart, or turns into racism. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2015, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-british-and-irish-people-have-scandinavian-ancestry/713181/18 "2015-02-21T12:10:49Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Spain is also a pretty diverse country. Celts (Celtiberians), Romans, Visigoths (Germanic peoples, related to Germans and Norse), Basques, Greeks, Berbers, Arabs, Jews. Plus Franks (the term was used through the Middle Ages to describe any travelers from norh of the Pyrinees), a surprising amount of Brits, the occasional lost Viking, Italians, Tyrians… and of course, any of those could have ancestors from a dozen other places. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2015, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-british-and-irish-people-have-scandinavian-ancestry/713181/19 "2015-02-21T13:33:11Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > a surprising amount of Brits There’s loads of recent retirees from the UK distorting your property market, but were there many who stayed after the Peninsular War, do you know? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-british-and-irish-people-have-scandinavian-ancestry/713181/20 "2015-02-21T14:57:43Z")
> [@Wolf333](#): > > I’m pretty sure that Idris Elba doesn’t. Idris Elba was born of Sierra Leonian and Ghanaian parents. Sierra Leone, like Liberia, was a colony partially settled by freed slaves (many of whom have ancestries involving European forebears), Ghana has a long history of intermarriage between local people and the British and other colonisers. The British “Who do you think you are” has a repeated trope of the discovery of white ancestry in Brits with African genetic history. It cannot be assumed that he has no European or Scandinavian genetics. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-british-and-irish-people-have-scandinavian-ancestry/713181.md?page=2)