# Do all pianos sound the same? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 20, 2008, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-pianos-sound-the-same/434251 "2008-01-20T12:11:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-pianos-sound-the-same/434251/1 "2008-01-20T12:11:10Z")
Since sound is based on wavelength, and wavelength is based on the length of the strings, specific to this question, can a baby grand sound exactly the same as a grand piano? What about a spinet\* piano? And, if they all do sound the same, such as middle C = middle C regardless, how is this possible? I must be missing something. :scratches head: - Jinx \*curiously, Wikipedia’s picture of a “bent spinet” is what I might have called a baby grand. [Spinet - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinet) But, I thought a spinet model is a box-like piano where the strings run vertically, to save space - perhaps the most commonly found piano…well, the latter is what I mean by spinet. ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-pianos-sound-the-same/434251/2 "2008-01-20T12:28:06Z")
They can’t sound exactly the same in tone quality. The smaller one has shorter strings, so to sound at the same frequencies, it either has to have heavier strings or lower string tension, or a little of both. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-pianos-sound-the-same/434251/3 "2008-01-20T12:29:11Z")
The fundamental frequency, such as A=440Hz, defines the pitch of a sound. The distinctive qualities of a sound are the [timbre](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timbre), and as that article demonstrates, it’s a term which is not all that easy to define. But in short, no, no two pianos have identical timbres, and none two sound quite alike even when playing middle C. However, they do sound more alike than they do compared to, say, a clarinet playing middle C. Or to somebody singing it. ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-pianos-sound-the-same/434251/4 "2008-01-20T12:29:49Z")
[QUOTE=riker1384] They can’t sound exactly the same in tone quality. The smaller has shorter strings, so to sound at the same frequencies, it either has to have heavier strings or lower tension, or a little of both. [/QUOTE] Ah! Yes, there are other variables I did not consider! :smack: Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-pianos-sound-the-same/434251/5 "2008-01-20T13:54:11Z")
[QUOTE=Jinx] Ah! Yes, there are other variables I did not consider! :smack: Thanks! [/QUOTE] There’s more to it than that even. A sound wave is not a nice neat sine wave at 440 hz or whatever, it has all sorts of variation with various harmonics and other qualities which make it sound different. Consider this, a guitar made of one type of wood but otherwise identical to a guitar made of another type of wood will sound quite different! ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-pianos-sound-the-same/434251/6 "2008-01-20T14:22:06Z")
Materials and design has a huge impact on timbre and playability. Materials and the way they are put together affect the resonances and damping - causing some notes and harmonics to be reinforced or muted. So each piano is individual. The differences between two pianos constructed to the same design and materials are slight as compared with an upright vs a grand, and some people won’t be able to hear the difference that an experienced player will notice. Some players are so wedded to the instruments they use that they have very expensive (and heavy) pianos shipped from concert to concert, requiring a retune at every gig. I heard one pianist (who was touring and playing all of Bach’s piano works) who had two identical pianos, shipped to alternate venues and toured with his own piano tech. And every venue probably had it’s own top quality grand piano, but he wanted the specific sound and feel of his own pianos. It reminds me of Jimmy Hendrix, who needed a new Octava (electronic effects unit). He sat in the store trying every one on the shelf, until he found the one he wanted. No-one else could hear any difference between the units, which were all brand new. But Jimmy could. Si ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-pianos-sound-the-same/434251/7 "2008-01-20T14:53:47Z")
[QUOTE=1920s Style “Death Ray”] A sound wave is not a nice neat sine wave at 440 hz or whatever, it has all sorts of variation with various harmonics and other qualities [/QUOTE] Right - a pure 440hz sine wave sounds nothing like an A from a piano. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-pianos-sound-the-same/434251/8 "2008-01-20T15:02:44Z")
[QUOTE=si\_blakely] It reminds me of Jimmy Hendrix, who needed a new Octava (electronic effects unit). He sat in the store trying every one on the shelf, until he found the one he wanted. No-one else could hear any difference between the units, which were all brand new. But Jimmy could. [/quote] Or _thought_ he could. The chances of a variation between simultaneously mass-produced electronic devices is much less than handmade pianos which use wood and may be of different ages, shapes and sizes. There are Hi-Fi “experts” who say they can tell the difference between $1 worth of speaker wire and a $7000 hookup, too. Just because they say they can doesn’t mean there really is a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-pianos-sound-the-same/434251/9 "2008-01-20T15:16:37Z")
Ahem Fortepianos > **[Fortepiano](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortepiano)** > > A fortepiano \[ˌfɔrteˈpjaːno\], sometimes referred to as a pianoforte, is an early piano. In principle, the word "fortepiano" can designate any piano dating from the invention of the instrument by Bartolomeo Cristofori in 1698 up to the early 19th century. Most typically, however, it is used to refer to the mid-18th to early-19th century instruments, for which composers of the Classical era, especially Haydn, Mozart, and the younger Beethoven and Hummel, wrote their piano music. > Starting in Beet... Tangent Piano > **[Tangent piano](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangent_piano)** > > The tangent piano is a very rare keyboard instrument that resembles a harpsichord and early pianos in design. It normally features five octaves of keys and the strings are acted upon by narrow wooden or metal slips when the keys are depressed. > In 1440, Arnault de Zwolle described what is believed to be the first keyboard instrument which used a tangent action. It is speculated that this was a clavichord or harpsichord. Pantaleon Hebenstreit is credited with the creation in 1705 of the first tang... Harpsichord > **[Harpsichord](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpsichord)** > > A harpsichord (Italian: clavicembalo; French: clavecin; German: Cembalo; Spanish: clavecín; Portuguese: cravo; Dutch: klavecimbel; Polish: klawesyn; Ukrainian: клавесин) is a musical instrument played by means of a keyboard. This activates a row of levers that turn a trigger mechanism that plucks one or more strings with a small plectrum made from quill or plastic. The strings are under tension on a soundboard, which is mounted in a wooden case; the soundboard amplifies the vibrations from the ... These links may address issues in the OP a little better. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-pianos-sound-the-same/434251/10 "2008-01-20T16:12:27Z")
Sound examples from different types of pianos: [http://www.speech.kth.se/music/5\_lectures/sounds/sounds.html](http://www.speech.kth.se/music/5_lectures/sounds/sounds.html) ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-pianos-sound-the-same/434251/11 "2008-01-20T16:47:07Z")
[QUOTE=Musicat] Or _thought_ he could. The chances of a variation between simultaneously mass-produced electronic devices is much less than handmade pianos which use wood and may be of different ages, shapes and sizes. There are Hi-Fi “experts” who say they can tell the difference between $1 worth of speaker wire and a $7000 hookup, too. Just because they say they can doesn’t mean there really is a difference. [/QUOTE] Yeah - I agree there, and Jimmy may have been spaced out. But those Octava’s were probably assembled with 5% tolerance resistors and transistors that had a fair bit of variation as well. All those little bits could impact the filters and resonances in odd ways - so who knows. Si ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-pianos-sound-the-same/434251/12 "2008-01-20T19:56:47Z")
[QUOTE=si\_blakely] Yeah - I agree there, and Jimmy may have been spaced out. But those Octava’s were probably assembled with 5% tolerance resistors and transistors that had a fair bit of variation as well. All those little bits could impact the filters and resonances in odd ways - so who knows. [/quote] Sure, it’s possible. But to answer the OP – not all pianos sound the same in the way that not all singers or guitars sound the same. But most people would recognize any piano as a piano. ---
**Author:** ![tygerbryght](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a9a28c/32.png) [@tygerbryght](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tygerbryght)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2008, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-pianos-sound-the-same/434251/13 "2008-01-21T00:07:48Z")
[QUOTE=Musicat] Sure, it’s possible. But to answer the OP – not all pianos sound the same in the way that not all singers or guitars sound the same. But most people would recognize any piano as a piano. [/QUOTE] Speaking as one who has played pianos for approximately 60 years (since age 5): No two pianos sound exactly alike. There are **substantial** differences between upright pianos (spinets & old-fashioned uprights) and grands (baby, 7’, 9’, etc), and there are smaller differences between the differing classes. Though I’ve only ever played one of them, antique square grands have a yet different sound (but vastly superior to uprights), and that one I played had a very mellow sound. My Roland electric piano has a choice of about four different piano sounds - each of which is clearly distinguishable from the others. About the only one I never use is the honky-tonk sound. Listening to those sounds from a good electric piano might help the curious non-musician to understand. The most important variable in a piano’s sound is its sounding board. These are made of wood and metal. The sounding board can crack - this is one of the hazards in moving, and a reason why no grand should be moved by amateurs - at least not without supervision by someone who understands the innards of the beast. However, the wood of the case itself does contribute - just as the kinds of wood used in a guitar affect the sound. The size of the chamber within which the sound reverberates, and the size and shape of the opening (whether the lifted lid of a grand or the lifted top of an upright) also affect the sound. A physicist could explain that - I can’t; sorry. If there were no difference between instruments, Steinways and Yamahas wouldn’t be worth more than Baldwins. Nor would Bosendorfers be worth more than any other - extra octave or no. As for Jimi Hendrix and the guitars … it sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Were I guitar player with an unlimited budget, I’d likely do the same. I know I would play a seemingly endless procession of “real” pianos before choosing, if I had both the money and space for one. ---
**Author:** ![gotpasswords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2008, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-pianos-sound-the-same/434251/14 "2008-01-21T01:44:54Z")
[QUOTE=tygerbryght] My Roland electric piano has a choice of about four different piano sounds - each of which is clearly distinguishable from the others. About the only one I never use is the honky-tonk sound. Listening to those sounds from a good electric piano might help the curious non-musician to understand. [/QUOTE] And then go listen to any real piano. We had a decent electric piano and while it sounded nice, there was something missing. Over on the real piano (in our case, a spinet) you can tell that the origin of the sound is something is being hit. The one thing that the nearly thousand dollar electronic instrument could not capture was that impact of felt hammers on steel wires. ---
**Author:** ![GiftofSchizo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giftofschizo/32/7280_2.png) [@GiftofSchizo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GiftofSchizo)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2008, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-pianos-sound-the-same/434251/15 "2008-01-21T02:05:45Z")
Good evening, Straightdopers; GiftofSchizo here. No question, pianos have a distinct voice clearly beyond just their size rating. My wife is a musician teaching at a university here in Alabama–a university that just recently achieved the “all Steinway” designation in their music program–and claims that she can recognize individual pianos within the program by their sound, despite the fact that these are all identical instruments with about the same amount of use, maintenance, tuning, temperature and moisture conditions, etc. I have no reason not to believe her. GoS ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2008, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-pianos-sound-the-same/434251/16 "2008-01-21T05:57:51Z")
I’d guess those folks who don’t believe the Jimi Hendrix story are non-musicians. Although I never heard the “Octava” story, I believe Jimi would buy amps after trying just about all that the store had on hand. I’d also be surprised that he’d be the only one who could detect the subtle differences between each Octava or each amplifier. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2008, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-pianos-sound-the-same/434251/17 "2008-01-21T06:14:03Z")
[QUOTE=wolf\_meister] I’d also be surprised that he’d be the only one who could detect the subtle differences between each Octava or each amplifier. [/QUOTE] I suspect it was more a case of him being the only person bothering to listen for such subtle differences. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2008, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-pianos-sound-the-same/434251/18 "2008-01-21T12:59:03Z")
A factor I’ve noticed with pianos (more than with guitars but it also must happen with them too) is that the size/shape of a room and the decor, that is whether it has wooden floors or curtains or other fabric has a bearing on how it sounds. Maybe it’s just reverb but when we moved the piano in our home from one room to another the change in sound was quite noticable. ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2008, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-pianos-sound-the-same/434251/19 "2008-01-21T13:19:12Z")
For your consideration, and article about [Tori Amos and her Bosendorfer pianos](http://www.yessaid.com/bosendorfer.html). The descriptions of how the pianos are made boggles my mind: > [@Tori](#): > > There’s a little man in Austria. I went to the plant in Vienna, and there’s a little man that goes out in the forest and knocks on the trees. They have their own forest that they - they’ve been making pianos since 1830-something. And they own their own forest, and they replant them, and they harvest, and there’s a really um, what do you call it, there’s a real environmental - they have to be conscious about it. […] And um, a little man goes and knocks and decides who gets chopped down. And then once it goes, it sits out in the different weather conditions for three-four years, and then they start making the piano. And it takes about 68 weeks to make a Bösendorfer. > […] > The reason I love to play Bösendorfers is because I think their whole [manufacturing] process is trying to keep them as unmechanical – as unfactoryized – as possible, so that the soul of everybody who touches one or works with it is in there. […] A piano is alive because of all the feelings the men working on it put into it. A technician told me if he is angry – if he has had a fight with his lover or if he is not feeling good – the piano will carry that with it. It will hit harder. Or it won’t hit hard enough if he is feeling insecure. The sanders have pictures of naked women in the room because when they touch the piano they want her to feel like a woman’s body. She’s been playing piano since she was four or five, so I have no doubt that she can tell different instruments apart. For my part, as a tuba player, I could absolutely tell the difference between the first tuba I played and the second. I had only ever played the one, and then when I got to high school the band room had three or four tubas, and each of the low brass guys had one that they liked best. I was least senior so I got one of the ones that was left over. Strangely they weren’t the “worst” ones, they were simply the ones that the last graduating seniors had preferred. You’d think that if one tuba was demonstrably “better” than another it would always be the senior player’s tuba… but it turns out that by the time you’re a senior, you’ve been playing the same one for three years and you don’t want to switch up. A lot of that is the balance and the physical touch of the keys, but it’s also how it warms up to you when you play it. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2008, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-pianos-sound-the-same/434251/20 "2008-01-21T13:21:43Z")
Yes, a room has a huge effect on the sound of an instrument, or more accurately, it has a huge effect on the sound that you hear in the room. It is all to do with reverb and also the shape and size of the room boosting and cutting various parts of the sound spectrum. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-all-pianos-sound-the-same/434251.md?page=2)