# Do American accents distinguish "aw" and short "o" sounds? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 23, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742 "2004-09-23T20:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/1 "2004-09-23T20:15:52Z")
I sometimes see phonetic spellings on American sites use “aw” to represent the short “o” sound such as that in “rob” or “hot”. An expample is the [Snopes page](http://www.snopes.com/racial/language/names.htm) mentioned in the [Apocryphal strange names](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=277253) thread, which gives “NAWS-mo king” as the pronunciation for the name “Nosmo King”. To this Brit, “NAWS-mo” does not sound like “NOS-mo”. Are the sounds really identical in (some? all?) American accents? Does “cot” sound the same as “caught”, for instance? ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/2 "2004-09-23T20:17:36Z")
Yes. in fact, this American has a hard time imagining how you’d pronounce them differently. ---
**Author:** ![TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tellmei_mnotcrazy/32/3419_2.png) [@TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TellMeI_mNotCrazy)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/3 "2004-09-23T20:26:12Z")
Hmm. Noz-mo (Like Cosmo Kramer) Paws (like dawg paws) Dog does not rhyme with “flog”. Neither does hog (but hog rhymes with dog) Definitely two different sounds. (American) ---
**Author:** ![TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tellmei_mnotcrazy/32/3419_2.png) [@TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TellMeI_mNotCrazy)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/4 "2004-09-23T20:27:35Z")
Oh and no, cot most certainly doesn’t sound like caught, and it’s one of my pet peeves to hear it pronounced that way (although I admit it’s irrational, regional differences will always exist) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/5 "2004-09-23T20:28:43Z")
This is often a topic of conversation on alt.usage.english. In my Midwestern dialect caught = cot (but does not = court) Mary = marry = merry horse = hoarse pearl = purl ---
**Author:** ![W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/W.Fikere_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/6 "2004-09-23T20:28:59Z")
They are definitely the same in some parts of the U.S., but not all. I am from the East Coast, and I hear and pronounce them differently. (The difference stems from the lips being more rounded in _caught_ than in _cot._) Based on my limited, informal observation, I would say that pronouncing them the same is more common in the West, particularly in California. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/7 "2004-09-23T20:30:00Z")
California: same Connecticut: different Is this an east/west thing? Anyone in, say, Iowa? ---
**Author:** ![RiverRunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/977dab/32.png) [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/8 "2004-09-23T20:31:10Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > To this Brit, “NAWS-mo” does not sound like “NOS-mo”. Are the sounds really identical in (some? all?) American accents? Does “cot” sound the same as “caught”, for instance? Not in any American accent I’ve ever heard, with the possible exception of a Bronx accent. That’s the only one that even really comes halfway close. RR ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/9 "2004-09-23T20:33:21Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > Is this an east/west thing? Anyone in, say, Iowa? I’ve just given you my Ohio accent caught = cot. ---
**Author:** ![TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tellmei_mnotcrazy/32/3419_2.png) [@TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TellMeI_mNotCrazy)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/10 "2004-09-23T20:35:36Z")
I’m thinking that it’s the same in the South too. Apparently it’s just the Yankiest of Yanks who pronounce them differently. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/11 "2004-09-23T20:36:16Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I’ve just given you my Ohio accent caught = cot. Sorry, the thread filled up really fast - only the first 3 replies were there when I wrote that! ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/12 "2004-09-23T20:38:00Z")
> [@TellMeI'mNotCrazy](#): > > Dog does not rhyme with “flog”. It doesn’t? > [@](#): > > Tomba: > They are definitely the same in some parts of the U.S., but not all. I am from the East Coast, and I hear and pronounce them differently. (The difference stems from the lips being more rounded in caught than in cot.) Like Nametag, I can’t imagine how the two could be pronounced differently. If I say “cot”, but round my lips more, I get “coat”. Surely “coat” doesn’t rhyme with “caught”? ---
**Author:** ![W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/W.Fikere_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/13 "2004-09-23T20:39:39Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > California: same > Connecticut: different > > Is this an east/west thing? Anyone in, say, Iowa? I am currently living in Iowa, and I think I have noticed people from this region pronouncing them the same. But I wouldn’t want to guess at the prevalence of it. A friend of mine, from California, once made fun of Easterners, accusing them of saying “Nev_aw_da” instead of the Western pronunciation, which uses the same vowel as in _fat._ I noticed that neither of those pronunciations sounds like the way I say the state’s name! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/14 "2004-09-23T20:42:51Z")
> [@W. Fikere Tomba](#): > > A friend of mine, from California, once made fun of Easterners, accusing them of saying “Nev_aw_da” instead of the Western pronunciation, which uses the same vowel as in _fat._ I noticed that neither of those pronunciations sounds like the way I say the state’s name! And Fikere’s phonetics here show you that in some American accents O = AW = AH. Because I say “Ne VAH da” but to me that’s nothing like “Ne VAW da.” ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/15 "2004-09-23T20:46:03Z")
Not so fast, **TellMeI’mNotCrazy** – in the New Orleans area, and I believe here in Central Mississippi, “cot” and “caught” are different. I’ll try to explain: **"cot"** – the vowel here for me is the “ah” of “Open up and say ‘ah’.” **"caught"** – I pronounce this word with the vowel in “law” and “saw”. I also pronounce “dog” and “log” with that vowel. ---
**Author:** ![W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/W.Fikere_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/16 "2004-09-23T20:47:48Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Like Nametag, I can’t imagine how the two could be pronounced differently. If I say “cot”, but round my lips more, I get “coat”. Surely “coat” doesn’t rhyme with “caught”? You have to round your lips a little bit less than you do for _coat_ and make sure you’re not closing your jaw any when you do so. Actually, the problem may be that you and I don’t pronounce _cot_ the same way! ---
**Author:** ![TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tellmei_mnotcrazy/32/3419_2.png) [@TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TellMeI_mNotCrazy)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/17 "2004-09-23T20:48:40Z")
I’m no good at phonetics, but to me, “caught” is a front-of-the-mouth word and cot is more at the back-of-the-mouth. I know there are actual lingual terms for this but hell if I know what they are. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/18 "2004-09-23T20:53:38Z")
> [@TellMeI'mNotCrazy](#): > > Hmm. > > Dog does not rhyme with “flog”. Neither does hog (but hog rhymes with dog) “Dog” and “flog” rhyme for me, both using the vowel of “law”. The only short word I can think of right now that ends in “-og” and doesn’t take the “aw” vowel is “bog”, which uses the “ah” vowel. \ ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/19 "2004-09-23T20:57:36Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Not so fast, **TellMeI’mNotCrazy** – in the New Orleans area, and I believe here in Central Mississippi, “cot” and “caught” are different. > > I’ll try to explain: > > **"cot"** – the vowel here for me is the “ah” of “Open up and say ‘ah’.” > > **"caught"** – I pronounce this word with the vowel in “law” and “saw”. I also pronounce “dog” and “log” with that vowel. And the explanation falls through as people for whom cot=caught say every single vowel listed in your explanation exactly the same. My linguistics teacher (and I am so far from knowledgable, it isn’t funny) said that she couldn’t say it either - being a Pac NW person, but that you hear the other vowel a lot on the Sopranos (it’s the vowel sound in “Pauly”) ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/20 "2004-09-23T20:58:12Z")
I have lived most of my years in central Indiana, which is somewhat east of the smack-dab middle of the US. In my mouth,: Cot is more open than caught. Mary is the same as merry, but marry’s “a” is more like the “a” in cat. Same with Harry. Nosmo King is Nahs-mo, not Naws-mo. Cog is more open (cahg) than dog (edging toward dawg,) but not by much. For me, drink sounds like ink, but I know some folks who rhyme it with tank. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742.md?page=2)