# Do American accents distinguish "aw" and short "o" sounds? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 23, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742 "2004-09-23T20:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/61 "2004-09-24T04:59:05Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > * * * > > ## Quote: Originally Posted by Neurotik Auburn=Sausalito=Austin=Rotterdam=Ottawa=Nottingham=law=cot to me. > > Same here. Me too. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by acsenray > As for making sound files, I think you’ll find that a lot of these issues are covered thoroughly at [http://alt-usage-english.org/](http://alt-usage-english.org/) That’s a good site. I do hear differences in father, car, caught, etc., in some regions, but to my ear they are incredibly subtle differences. I’d still like to actually hear “cot” and “law” pronounced by one of the people in this thread who says they are different. Maybe we could devise a list of words and have each of us say the words and post a sound file. I _do_ frequently hear people do what, to my ear, sounds like they are mixing a “u” sound in with the “a” sound, so “law” sounds like “luuu-awh”, or even “luu-awr”, but never native Californians. I always took that to be like a Brooklyn accent, as in “Check out dis bruuuawd!” (Check out this broad!) ---
**Author:** ![MaryEFoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MaryEFoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaryEFoo)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/62 "2004-09-24T06:57:49Z")
Californian here, 3rd/4th generation. Caught=cot Mary=merry; marry is different Tomahto, short, very likely derived from the Spanish My father, whose father ran gold mines in California, was brought up in Boston to age six. Upon arrival in California, the locals pounded the Boston out of him. He claims he would say, “It makes me lawff to see the cawff, walk down the pahth, to take a bahth.” Auburn=Sausalito=Austin=Rotterdam=Ottawa=Nottingham=law=cot to me: me too. I pronounce ladder and latter differently, but a lot of people pronounce them alike (w/reference to the middle consonant). ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/63 "2004-09-24T08:28:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Auburn=Sausalito=Austin=Rotterdam=Ottawa=Nottingham=law=cot Put me in this group too. And Law and Lawyer are totally different vowels. Law = ‘Lah’ Lawyer = ‘Loy-yer’ I’ve personally never heard anyone pronounce them with a related sound. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/64 "2004-09-24T08:53:34Z")
I find this endlessly fascinating. To me, it is impossible to understand how someone can not hear the difference between “o” and “aw.” Anyhoo, for reference, I’ve recorded myself. I’m from New York, baby. Make of it what you will. [cot](http://www.friedo.com/cot.wav) [caught](http://www.friedo.com/caught.wav) [Don](http://www.friedo.com/don.wav) [Dawn](http://www.friedo.com/dawn.wav) [merry](http://www.friedo.com/merry.wav) [Marry](http://www.friedo.com/marry.wav) Let me know if you want me to say anything else. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/65 "2004-09-24T13:55:44Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > To me, it is impossible to understand how someone can not hear the difference between “o” and “aw.” > > [cot](http://www.friedo.com/cot.wav) > [caught](http://www.friedo.com/caught.wav) It’s not so hard to understand … the vowels are close phonetically. It is very much akin to how nartive Spanish speakers (when learning English as adults) have trouble distinguishing the vowels in “beat” and “bit”. For speakers where “cot”=“caught”: do **friedo’s** first four samples all sound like they contain the same vowel? FWIW, I pronounce these words exactly as **friedo** does. > [@wolfman](#): > > Law = ‘Lah’ Lawyer = ‘Loy-yer’ I’ve personally never heard anyone pronounce them with a related sound. I’ve never heard a version of “lawyer” that varied too much from your pronunciation, either – “loy-yer” sounds about right. But as for “law” – you say it “lah”? Compare it to the “la” in _Deck the halls with boughs of holly / Fa la la la la / La la la la_. All those la’s in the song sound like the word “law”? Let’s compare vowels to a different language, Spanish. The first “a” in _casa_ … that’s the same vowel in the English word “law” to you? ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/66 "2004-09-24T14:08:24Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > But as for “law” – you say it “lah”? Compare it to the “la” in _Deck the halls with boughs of holly / Fa la la la la / La la la la_. All those la’s in the song sound like the word “law”? > > Let’s compare vowels to a different language, Spanish. The first “a” in _casa_ … that’s the same vowel in the English word “law” to you? Yes and yes. I’d listen to **friedo** ’s sounds, but I’m at work… ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/67 "2004-09-24T14:31:01Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > For speakers where “cot”=“caught”: do **friedo’s** first four samples all sound like they contain the same vowel? It’s not that they sound the same, it’s that we (or at least I) don’t use one of those vowels at all. It doesn’t appear in my dialect. I have a hard time even making that sound. > [@](#): > > But as for “law” – you say it “lah”? Compare it to the “la” in _Deck the halls with boughs of holly / Fa la la la la / La la la la_. All those la’s in the song sound like the word “law”? Yes. (In fact, I was thinking the same thing before you typed it.) That’s how I would say “law.” I’ve heard people from different dialects say it differently, but they “talk funny” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/68 "2004-09-24T14:41:55Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > But as for “law” – you say it “lah”? Compare it to the “la” in _Deck the halls with boughs of holly / Fa la la la la / La la la la_. All those la’s in the song sound like the word “law”? > > Let’s compare vowels to a different language, Spanish. The first “a” in _casa_ … that’s the same vowel in the English word “law” to you? No no no! There’s no “ah” about it – it’s “aw”. And I pronounce the first syllable of “lawyer” exactly the same as “law”. The following “y” turns it into more of a “loy” sound, though. Maybe I will make some sound files after all. **Friedo** - one that’s missing is “Mary”, or do you pronounce that like you say “merry”? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/69 "2004-09-24T14:51:38Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > **Friedo** - one that’s missing is “Mary”, or do you pronounce that like you say “merry”? I pronounce that exactly the same as “marry.” ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/70 "2004-09-24T14:55:16Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > It’s not that they sound the same, it’s that we (or at least I) don’t use one of those vowels at all. It doesn’t appear in my dialect. I have a hard time even making that sound. How do you say “aw, man!”? It comes out “ah, man!” ? “Awful” and “awesome” are “ah-ful” and “ah-some”? Keep in mind, when I write “ah”, I mean the same vowel as the last vowel in Jimmy Fallon’s “No-maaah!”. Same as the “ah” in Bostonian “Hah-vahd”, “pahk the cahr”, etc. We’re talking about the same vowel, right? You say “law” to rhyme with Bostonian “cah” (car)? I have the nagging feeling that this is more a perception difference than a marked pronunciation difference. I have known people from all over the U.S., had many concersations with said people, and I have never heard: “Hey, I \*\*sah \*\* that guy here yesterday.” “You’re not the **bahss** of me!” “I gotta mow the **lahn** today.” “ **Brahnny** paper towels are better than the store brand.” … Just did a quick inventory of two coworkers – one from Chicago, and the other from rural Mississippi. Both distinguish “cot” and “caught” in exactly the way **friedo** does. My colleague from Chicago distinguishes them even more strongly than **friedo** and I do. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/71 "2004-09-24T15:14:39Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > It’s not that they sound the same, it’s that we (or at least I) don’t use one of those vowels at all. It doesn’t appear in my dialect. I have a hard time even making that sound. Take the “ar” in “bar”. That might be pretty much the vowel for you – just try hard to suppress the “r”. Concentrate less on the “r” and more on rounding the lips while saying “bar”. ---
**Author:** ![W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/W.Fikere_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/72 "2004-09-24T15:30:40Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > I have the nagging feeling that this is more a perception difference than a marked pronunciation difference. It can’t be purely perceptual, but that’s part of it. Hearing phonemes is a matter of noticing certain variations and ignoring others. Pronouncing phonemes is a matter of _controlling_ certain variations and ignoring others. People who say _cot_ and _caught_ the same way may actually say both words both ways without realizing it. ---
**Author:** ![TitoBenito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2acd7d/32.png) [@TitoBenito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TitoBenito)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/73 "2004-09-24T15:32:47Z")
> [@Dooku](#): > > I grew up in St. Louis, and I pronounce these words completely differently. > > Using City names as examples - hopefully everyone pronounces famous cities the same way: > > “law” I pronounce like Auburn, Sausalito, Austin, etc > > “cot” I pronounce like Rotterdam, Ottawa, Nottingham, etc. Actually, I pronounce Austin like Ottowa or cot but Auburn and Sausalito sound different. The aw in Auburn and law is slightly longer and a little rounder while in Austin and cot it is shorter and flatter. ---
**Author:** ![W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/W.Fikere_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/74 "2004-09-24T15:34:43Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > It’s not that they sound the same, it’s that we (or at least I) don’t use one of those vowels at all. It doesn’t appear in my dialect. I have a hard time even making that sound. Wait a minute—which one don’t you use? ---
**Author:** ![TitoBenito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2acd7d/32.png) [@TitoBenito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TitoBenito)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/75 "2004-09-24T15:36:05Z")
That could be because I’ve lived and Austin and thats how people who live there say it, while I pronounce Auburn like how my accent would normally pronounce it. ---
**Author:** ![RiverRunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/977dab/32.png) [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/76 "2004-09-24T15:37:37Z")
> [@TellMeI'mNotCrazy](#): > > I’m thinking that it’s the same in the South too. Apparently it’s just the Yankiest of Yanks who pronounce them differently. Not so. I’m from SC, and “caught” != “cot” here. The vowel sound in “cot” is pronounce pretty much as the one in “pa,” whereas the one in “caught” gets the vowel sound in “paw.” RR ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/77 "2004-09-24T15:44:12Z")
Texan checking in here. For me: caught != cot ("!=" means not equal) hawk != hock Mary = marry = merry horse = hoarse pearl = purl Also, “bother” and “father” rhyme perfectly. There’s another pair of words to add to the regional dialect test. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/78 "2004-09-24T15:58:05Z")
“I bought a robot.” Two very different sounds. (Three, if you count the long o in the first syllable of “robot.”) ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/79 "2004-09-24T16:03:54Z")
> [@Thudlow Boink](#): > > “I bought a robot.” Two very different sounds. (Three, if you count the long o in the first syllable of “robot.”) What some folks here seem to be saying is that they’d pronounce that sentence something like: “I _bot_ a robot” … or “I b **ah** t a row-b **ah** t” if that makes it clearer. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/80 "2004-09-24T16:06:57Z")
> [@RiverRunner](#): > > Not so. I’m from SC, and “caught” != “cot” here. The vowel sound in “cot” is pronounce pretty much as the one in “pa,” whereas the one in “caught” gets the vowel sound in “paw.” I still find it weird that you pronounce words with an “o” vowel the same as those with an “a” vowel. O. Pot. A. Pa. Totally different mouth shapes for me. “Pa” is the same as “part” but different from “pot”. “Paw” is the same as “port”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742.md?page=5)