# Do American accents distinguish "aw" and short "o" sounds? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 23, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742 "2004-09-23T20:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/81 "2004-09-24T16:07:26Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > I pronounce that exactly the same as “marry.” That’s wild, friedo. I was born in Brooklyn, and pronounce everything the same as you, but I would pronounce Mary the same was as Rhoda did on the Mary Tyler Moore show, “Mairy” (rhymes with hairy). ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/82 "2004-09-24T16:15:59Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > I still find it weird that you pronounce words with an “o” vowel the same as those with an “a” vowel. Yeah, but that’s one of the strongest markers of a British accent to an American – saying words like _pot_ as what sounds to me something approaching “pawt”. It’s not _exactly_ that “aw” vowel – it’s something different. That much I know. But there’s no real analog for British “short o” in American English. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/83 "2004-09-24T16:31:02Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > I still find it weird that you pronounce words with an “o” vowel the same as those with an “a” vowel. > > O. Pot. > > A. Pa. > > Totally different mouth shapes for me. “Pa” is the same as “part” but different from “pot”. “Paw” is the same as “port”. How do you pronounce “Po” then? For instance I would use different vowels for PO and POT; that is to say POT is not PO with a T added. Take ho (as in Santa saying “ho, ho, ho”). Ho is pronounced like the gardening tool (hoe). To me this is a long “o”, in fact it’s the same as the name of the letter. Now add a “t” to the end. It is not "ho"t (like rhyming with coat), but “haht” (rhyming with the French word “chatte” (female cat)). Hopefully this helps… ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/84 "2004-09-24T16:34:27Z")
**Bwana** , it seems that **Colophon** understands all that, but that he is still bemused by the differences between American and British “short o”. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/85 "2004-09-24T16:58:27Z")
> [@W. Fikere Tomba](#): > > > [@amarinth](#): > > > > It’s not that they sound the same, it’s that we (or at least I) don’t use one of those vowels at all. It doesn’t appear in my dialect. I have a hard time even making that sound. > > Wait a minute—which one don’t you use? The one that looks like a backwards “c” with a colon, next to the words “call” and “four” I can hear it, when other people say it. If I think hard while I’m imitating an accent, it will come out. But in normal, casual speech, I don’t use that vowel. Check the footnote for that vowel on that page. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/86 "2004-09-24T17:09:19Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > How do you pronounce “Po” then? To rhyme with “hoe” or “ho ho ho”. Same as you, I’m guessing. > [@](#): > > For instance I would use different vowels for PO and POT; that is to say POT is not > PO with a T added. OK, I’m still with you here. > [@](#): > > Take ho (as in Santa saying “ho, ho, ho”). Ho is pronounced like the gardening tool (hoe). To me this is a long “o”, in fact it’s the same as the name of the letter. Yep. > [@](#): > > Now add a “t” to the end. It is not "ho"t (like rhyming with coat)… I still agree with you here… > [@](#): > > but “haht” (rhyming with the French word “chatte” (female cat)). … but this is where you lose me. You’re suddenly switching to a “short a” sound instead of a “short o”. The above would suggest that you also pronounce “bottle” the same as “battle”. Do you? > [@](#): > > Hopefully this helps… 😕🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/87 "2004-09-24T17:10:08Z")
I’m a Californian in the Midwest and this sound is the ONLY time I’ve had a hard time making myself understood. In Michigan: Me: There was a heron in my pond yesterday. Coworker: In your WHAT? Me: My pond. Coworker: Your WHAT? Me: My POND. The body of water at my apartment complex! Coworker: Oh, your POND. I hear no difference between what I said and what she said. In Illinois: Me: Have you seen Don? Coworker: Who? Me: Don? Coworker: Who’s Don? Me: Our BOSS? Coworker: Oh, DON! You said Dawn! I pronounce Don and Dawn the same. I’m not really sure what the difference is, but apparently some people use one. The funny thing is, I mimick accents a lot unconsciously, so I’ve pretty well adopted a lot of the mannerisms of Midwestern speech (unless I’ve had a couple drinks), but this is totally over my head. I couldn’t mimick this if I tried, because I can’t even hear the difference. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/88 "2004-09-24T17:13:12Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > The one that looks like a backwards “c” with a colon, next to the words “call” and “four”. Here’s [the link](http://www.antimoon.com/how/pronunc-soundsipa.htm) **amarinth** is mentioning. As I noted on page 1 of this thread, my personal pronunciation of this vowel (the “call” and “four” samples) approaches the British version of this vowel. This is also the version I hear all around me here. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/89 "2004-09-24T17:16:50Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > I pronounce Don and Dawn the same. I’m not really sure what the difference is, but apparently some people use one. Listen to **friedo’s** sound samples at the top of this page. He pronounces both of those words with different vowels. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/90 "2004-09-24T17:31:00Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > … but this is where you lose me. You’re suddenly switching to a “short a” sound instead of a “short o”. > > The above would suggest that you also pronounce “bottle” the same as “battle”. Do you? I will tentaively submit that no Americans pronounce “bottle” the same as “battle”. However, the vowel qualities of both words are different between American and British usage. Very, very roughly: 1. [British “short a”](http://www.antimoon.com/sound/armfather-br.mp3) is very close to [American “short o”](http://www.antimoon.com/sound/hotrock-am.mp3). 2. [British “short o”](http://www.antimoon.com/sound/hotrock-br.mp3) has no exact American analog – closest American sound is [“aw” sound of “law” or “bought”](http://asstudents.unco.edu/faculty/tbredehoft/UNCclasses/ENG419/sounds%20folder/bought.wav) (Eastern, Southern U.S.). 3. [American “short a”](http://www.antimoon.com/sound/catblack.mp3) has some British analogs, but I am not sure which British dialects have them. Some call it a “flat a”, if that helps. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/91 "2004-09-24T18:17:47Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > What part of Ohio? Up near Cleveland (East side) I’ve never heard them pronouced to rhyme. Cot like hot has the classical short “o” sound sounding like “ah” as in when the doctor is looking at your throat. Caught begins with the sound caw rhyming with paw as in dog’s paw. I’m from Dayton. Actually, I believe the Cleveland accent has a lot more in common with other “Great Lakes” accents like Buffalo and Chicago than it does with accents in the rest of Ohio. ---
**Author:** ![Voodoochile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/898d66/32.png) [@Voodoochile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voodoochile)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/92 "2004-09-24T18:28:11Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > I suspect you’re in the minority. Life-long Californian here (well, except for the past couple of years) and cot and caught are the same sound. As are Don and Dawn. Well, then Im in the minority as well (family goes back in Cal to 1867): Cot = shot = ah+t Caught = aught = k+awe+t; similar to ‘awww shucks’. in ‘He got caught’, the last two dont ryhme. Related, its always been awe-sum, rather than Os(ahhs)-sum, unless the ah in ah-sum was being deliberately pushed to the back of the throat to be cool or something; surfer dialect and all that. Same with Don and Dawn - ah and awe, respectively, though the difference is less pronounced than between cot and caught. Dawn is usually pronounced more like Sean/Shawn/Shaun, rather than Shot or Shon. 😉 My wife, who is a Swede and who lived in Ct her first three years in the US, has no discernable Swedish accent whatsoever, but she still pronounces some things with a Connecticut accent. It drives her crazy when I say Aunt like ant, when she says Aunt like Awe-nt, which to me sounds like a snooty east coast blue blood. Another one is in the Harvard survey posted: my wife says: coupon = coo(koo)-pon I say coupon = que(kyew)-pon For the record: bother = father Mary = merry = mairy been = bin grocery = grow-shurry, not grow-surry route = rowt(ow as in wow), not ‘root’ ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/93 "2004-09-24T18:59:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Cot = shot = ah+t > Caught = aught = k+awe+t; similar to ‘awww shucks’. **Voodoochile** explained it perfectly. That’s how I pronounce them. > [@Everyone else but me](#): > > Auburn=Sausalito=Austin=Rotterdam=Ottawa=Nottingham=law=cot to me. Still trying to get my mind around someone pronouncing Auburn, Sausalito and Austin as “Ahburn” “Sahsalito” and “Ahstin.” I’ve never heard anyone pronounce them that way. ---
**Author:** ![TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tellmei_mnotcrazy/32/3419_2.png) [@TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TellMeI_mNotCrazy)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/94 "2004-09-24T19:09:20Z")
I really do think a lot of the “I’ve never heard anyone say…” is due to the habit of knowing what a person says and immediately translating it into what we’re used to. Clearly there are a lot of people on both sides of the fence here, so the chances that either side has never heard the other side’s pronunciations seem pretty slim. The mind adapts pretty easily, which is what makes it possible to understand someone even through a thick accent. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/95 "2004-09-24T19:17:09Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > I find this endlessly fascinating. To me, it is impossible to understand how someone can not hear the difference between “o” and “aw.” We just don’t hear it as different. It sounds different to me when I really listen to you saying them, but it sounds _less_ different than simply the difference between one person’s voice and another person’s, rather like the difference between A 440 played on two different violins. Look at the happy face smilie:) and the dubious smilie :dubious: - They look different, but I would call them both yellow. Likewise, :rolleyes: 😛😃 these are all green, but they aren’t exactly the same. I don’t recognize ‘aw’ and ‘ah’ as different sounds, just as I don’t recognize the smilies as different colors. When I visited Japan, I asked about a particular sound in the language. I can’t remember the word now, but let’s just say it was “nanban”. Sometimes, people would say it like “nanban” and sometimes they would say it like “naMban”. I asked my Japanese friend whether it supposed to be nanban or namban, and she said, “I don’t hear any difference.” ---
**Author:** ![umop\_ap\_sdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/dbc845/32.png) [@umop\_ap\_sdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/umop_ap_sdn)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/96 "2004-09-24T19:24:51Z")
I make even more distinction between “cot” and “caught” than **friedo** does. For me, the “caught” can sometimes be a dipthong, starting with the “o” in “or” and then centralizing. “Cot” can be open-up-and-say-ah or it can be more like the Bostoner’s “ah”. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/97 "2004-09-24T19:25:46Z")
> [@Dooku](#): > > Quote: > Cot = shot = ah+t > Caught = aught = k+awe+t; similar to ‘awww shucks’. > **Voodoochile** explained it perfectly. That’s how I pronounce them. You guys DO realize that putting w’s in there isn’t really helping to explain it. W is a consonant sound. I hear “awww” and “ahhhh” as being the same. When I say “awwww”, I don’t actually hear any w’s in the sound. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/98 "2004-09-24T19:30:24Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > I’m happy to record some authentic British pronunciations But there’s no such thing as a ‘British’ pronunciation, it varies across the country. So you’ll have to be a bit more precise. In my accent, as with most Scots **cot** and **caught** are identical. You can’t say the same for a Southern English accent. But in a Southern English accent **cold** is identical to **called** , while it’s very different in Scottish accents. So can we stop misleading people with this talk of a British accent. It doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/99 "2004-09-24T19:34:17Z")
> [@Voodoochile](#): > > My wife, who is a Swede and who lived in Ct her first three years in the US, has no discernable Swedish accent whatsoever, but she still pronounces some things with a Connecticut accent. It drives her crazy when I say Aunt like ant, when she says Aunt like Awe-nt, which to me sounds like a snooty east coast blue blood. The funny thing is that Aunt pronounced like ‘ont’ is ALSO the way urban black people tend to pronounce it. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/100 "2004-09-24T19:36:24Z")
> [@Dooku](#): > > Still trying to get my mind around someone pronouncing Auburn, Sausalito and Austin as “Ahburn” “Sahsalito” and “Ahstin.” I’ve never heard anyone pronounce them that way. I don’t know if I’m reading this right, but I grew up near Sausalito, and it is definitely pronounced, in the regional dialect, “sauce-a-lito”. Is that what you’re saying you can’t imagine? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742.md?page=6)