# Do American accents distinguish "aw" and short "o" sounds? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 23, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742 "2004-09-23T20:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/101 "2004-09-24T19:44:53Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > I don’t recognize ‘aw’ and ‘ah’ as different sounds, just as I don’t recognize the smilies as different colors. > > When I visited Japan, I asked about a particular sound in the language. I can’t remember the word now, but let’s just say it was “nanban”. Sometimes, people would say it like “nanban” and sometimes they would say it like “naMban”. I asked my Japanese friend whether it supposed to be nanban or namban, and she said, “I don’t hear any difference.” This kind of thing is common in all human languages. In English, the “p” sounds in “pot” and “spot” are different – in “top”, the “p” is produced with a mild puff of breath (called an aspirated consonant). The “p” in “spot” is unaspirated. This distinction between the “p” sounds makes no real difference in English, except sometimes to mark a foreign accent. However, these two “p” sounds are considered completely different consonants in Thai, and a word can have totally different meanings [depending upon which “p” is used](http://www.ling.udel.edu/colin/courses/ling101_f99/lecture8.html) (tone not marked, aspiration marked by [sup]h[/sup] ): _p[sup]h[/sup]aa_ (forest) _paa_ (split) . ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/102 "2004-09-24T19:51:28Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > I don’t know if I’m reading this right, but I grew up near Sausalito, and it is definitely pronounced, in the regional dialect, “sauce-a-lito”. Is that what you’re saying you can’t imagine? Yes … but how do you pronounce “sauce”? With [Vowel 1](http://asstudents.unco.edu/faculty/tbredehoft/UNCclasses/ENG419/sounds%20folder/bought.wav)? Or [Vowel 2](http://asstudents.unco.edu/faculty/tbredehoft/UNCclasses/ENG419/sounds%20folder/bob.wav)? I use Vowel 1 for “sauce” … but Vowel 2 for “Sausalito”. But I’ve not had much ocassion to say “Sausalito” – though I could swear I’ve heard it many times with Vowel 2. ---
**Author:** ![TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tellmei_mnotcrazy/32/3419_2.png) [@TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TellMeI_mNotCrazy)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/103 "2004-09-24T19:52:35Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Yes … but how do you pronounce “sauce”? > > With [Vowel 1](http://asstudents.unco.edu/faculty/tbredehoft/UNCclasses/ENG419/sounds%20folder/bought.wav)? > > Or [Vowel 2](http://asstudents.unco.edu/faculty/tbredehoft/UNCclasses/ENG419/sounds%20folder/bob.wav)? > > I use Vowel 1 for “sauce” … but Vowel 2 for “Sausalito”. But I’ve not had much ocassion to say “Sausalito” – though I could swear I’ve heard it many times with Vowel 2. I think the Pepperidge Farm guy said it that way too. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/104 "2004-09-24T20:11:38Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Yes … but how do you pronounce “sauce”? I pronounce saucw as sawce, but I pronounce Sausalito as souse-ah-leedo. Grew up in New England (CT), lived in GA for a year, and in CA for 4 years, now HI for 23 years. All have had effects upon my accent. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/105 "2004-09-24T20:23:40Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > I use Vowel 1 for “sauce” … but Vowel 2 for “Sausalito”. But I’ve not had much ocassion to say “Sausalito” – though I could swear I’ve heard it many times with Vowel 2. You need to go back to PigBoy’s survey link, data for California, in post #42: > [@](#): > > 1. Do you pronounce “cot” and “caught” the same? > a. different (24.40%) > b. same (75.60%) For most Californians, there is no “Vowel 1” and “Vowel 2”; they are the same. And since Sausalito is in California… ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/106 "2004-09-24T20:26:00Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > I don’t know if I’m reading this right, but I grew up near Sausalito, and it is definitely pronounced, in the regional dialect, “sauce-a-lito”. Is that what you’re saying you can’t imagine? No, I’m saying I can’t imagine pronouncing it the other way - like “Stockton.” Should we tackle Sebastopol next? 😉 > [@](#): > > You guys DO realize that putting w’s in there isn’t really helping to explain it. W is a consonant sound. I hear “awww” and “ahhhh” as being the same. When I say “awwww”, I don’t actually hear any w’s in the sound. Apparently not. 🙂 OK, let’s try tis. Click the speaker icon [here](http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=cot) to hear the [M-W.com](http://M-W.com) guy pronounce “cot” just like I do, and click the speaker icon [here](http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=caught&x=15&y=9) to hear him pronouce “caught” just like I do. ---
**Author:** ![W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/W.Fikere_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/107 "2004-09-24T20:40:17Z")
> [@Voodoochile](#): > > It drives her crazy when I say Aunt like ant, when she says Aunt like Awe-nt, which to me sounds like a snooty east coast blue blood. Again, I’m an Easterner, and I distinguish _cot_ and _caught_. But I say _aunt_ with the same vowel as _cot_—not the vowel in _awe_. I’m from Maryland, though, not New England. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/108 "2004-09-24T20:42:26Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > You need to go back to PigBoy’s survey link, data for California, in post #42: > > For most Californians, there is no “Vowel 1” and “Vowel 2”; they are the same. And since Sausalito is in California… Just because someone is from California doesn’t mean that they can’t be taught to recognize the distinction between the two vowels from those links I posted. California is home to two of the most important linguistics faculties in the world – Cal-Berkely and UCLA. Surely there are native Californian students in those programs who passed Phonetics class? ---
**Author:** ![umop\_ap\_sdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/dbc845/32.png) [@umop\_ap\_sdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/umop_ap_sdn)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/109 "2004-09-24T20:44:57Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > The funny thing is that Aunt pronounced like ‘ont’ is ALSO the way urban black people tend to pronounce it. I think they sometimes pronounce it with the “aw” (vowel 1 in **bordelond** ’s post), which they also tend to use for the word “on”. To me, that sounds funny. I pronounce the words “on” and “aunt” with the open-up-and-say-ah vowel sound. On preview, what **W. Fikere Tomba** said. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/110 "2004-09-24T20:58:29Z")
> [@Dooku](#): > > Still trying to get my mind around someone pronouncing Auburn, Sausalito and Austin as “Ahburn” “Sahsalito” and “Ahstin.” I’ve never heard anyone pronounce them that way. [Here you go](http://hansprestige.com/cities.mp3): Auburn, Sausalito, Austin, Rotterdam, Ottawa, Nottingham. ---
**Author:** ![W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/W.Fikere_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/111 "2004-09-24T21:01:26Z")
> [@cityboy916](#): > > I think they sometimes pronounce it with the “aw” (vowel 1 in **bordelond** ’s post), which they also tend to use for the word “on”. To me, that sounds funny. I pronounce the words “on” and “aunt” with the open-up-and-say-ah vowel sound. > > On preview, what **W. Fikere Tomba** said. Not quite. I say _aunt_ the way you do, but I say _on_ the other way. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/112 "2004-09-24T21:04:33Z")
> [@Dooku](#): > > No, I’m saying I can’t imagine pronouncing it the other way - like “Stockton.” Should we tackle Sebastopol next? 😉 You’re not gonna like it: I say Suh-BAS-tuh-pool. > [@](#): > > OK, let’s try tis. Click the speaker icon [here](http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=cot) to hear the [M-W.com](http://M-W.com) guy pronounce “cot” just like I do, and click the speaker icon [here](http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=caught&x=15&y=9) to hear him pronouce “caught” just like I do. Nifty. I didn’t know they had sound files. Would’ve saved some trouble. That’s fascinating; I had no idea that some people considered that as a seperate vowel sound. To me, it just sounds like a slightly more subtle version of the way New Yorkers say “ah” AND “aw”, as in, “What up, dawg?”, or “Oh my Gawd!” or one of those secretaries in a 50’s movie: “Mr. Jawnson, you have a phone cawll.” ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/113 "2004-09-24T21:07:14Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Just because someone is from California doesn’t mean that they can’t be taught to recognize the distinction between the two vowels from those links I posted. > > California is home to two of the most important linguistics faculties in the world – Cal-Berkely and UCLA. Surely there are native Californian students in those programs who passed Phonetics class? D’uh, gee George - I dunno. We’re kinda stoopid here in California. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/114 "2004-09-24T21:33:14Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > [Here you go](http://hansprestige.com/cities.mp3): Auburn, Sausalito, Austin, Rotterdam, Ottawa, Nottingham. Ah. I get it now. You pronounce Rotterdam, Ottawa and Nottingham like the first three, not the other way around, which is what I had originally thought. > [@](#): > > You’re not gonna like it: I say Suh-BAS-tuh-pool. I say Suh-BAS-tuh-pole. (I love these types of threads. I had an [earlier one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=263350) where I asked where people were from if they pronounced “room” as “rum”) ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/115 "2004-09-25T03:18:34Z")
Here’s another regionalism for y’all to toss around. My dialect does not _ever_ have a short-e sound right before the letter “n”. So to me, “pin” and “pen” sound exactly alike. I stumbled upon the fact that some pronounce them differently, when I was out of college and got a real job. I asked a secretary if I could borrow a pen for a moment. She asked “a pen or a pin?” I said “a pen.” She then got her purse and started digging through it, while there were multiple pens sitting right there on top of her desk. I was very confused about what the hell she was doing for several moments until she explained it to me. ---
**Author:** ![W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/W.Fikere_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/116 "2004-09-25T03:26:05Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Here’s another regionalism for y’all to toss around. My dialect does not _ever_ have a short-e sound right before the letter “n”. So to me, “pin” and “pen” sound exactly alike. I stumbled upon the fact that some pronounce them differently, when I was out of college and got a real job. I asked a secretary if I could borrow a pen for a moment. She asked “a pen or a pin?” I said “a pen.” She then got her purse and started digging through it, while there were multiple pens sitting right there on top of her desk. I was very confused about what the hell she was doing for several moments until she explained it to me. I have read that your way of pronouncing these words is limited to the southern U.S. Unfortunately I can’t remember where I read that. It certainly _sounds_ like a Southern pronunciation. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/117 "2004-09-25T05:49:37Z")
> [@cityboy916](#): > > I think they sometimes pronounce it with the “aw” (vowel 1 in **bordelond** ’s post), which they also tend to use for the word “on”. To me, that sounds funny. I pronounce the words “on” and “aunt” with the open-up-and-say-ah vowel sound. But my point was that, unlike middle-class whites, they don’t tend to use the ‘a’ sound as in man, ant, fan, etc. when saying the word “aunt”. The way I say it, as a middle-class white guy, aunt and ant are pronounced identically. And if I’m not mistaken, many black people (I’m thinking of the East Coast rappers you hear on t.v. especially) use the “aw” sound for ALL those ‘o’ sounds, so “Mom, the dog is on the lawn” would sound like “Mouwm, the dauwg is ouwn the lauwn.” ---
**Author:** ![Shrinking\_Violet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Shrinking\_Violet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shrinking_Violet)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/118 "2004-09-25T16:27:11Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > But in a Southern English accent **cold** is identical to **called** I beg to differ - they’re completely different. cold = “coaled” called = “cawled” (Americans please ignore - I dread to think what you’d make of them. 😃 ) ---
**Author:** ![TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tellmei_mnotcrazy/32/3419_2.png) [@TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TellMeI_mNotCrazy)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/119 "2004-09-25T16:33:49Z")
> [@Shrinking Violet](#): > > I beg to differ - they’re completely different. > > cold = “coaled” > > called = “cawled” > > (Americans please ignore - I dread to think what you’d make of them. 😃 ) 😛 Exactly the same as you, for my part. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/120 "2004-09-25T16:39:48Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > D’uh, gee George - I dunno. We’re kinda stoopid here in California. :rolleyes: **Blowero** , I apologize – I hadn’t meant to come off as condescending. I thought you were saying something like “No Californian could ever hope to learn to distinguish those two vowels.” The point I was trying to get across was that, to my own personal experience, many Californians _have_ in fact learned to do so, even when the distinction was not made in their native dialect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742.md?page=7)