# Do American accents distinguish "aw" and short "o" sounds? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 23, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742 "2004-09-23T20:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/121 "2004-09-25T16:41:27Z")
> [@TellMeI'mNotCrazy](#): > > 😛 Exactly the same as you, for my part. Ditto – my “cold” and “called” sound much like **Shrinking Violet’s**. I’m sure there is a slight difference, but it would be subtle. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/122 "2004-09-25T20:34:04Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > This is often a topic of conversation on alt.usage.english. > > In my Midwestern dialect > > caught = cot (but does not = court) > Mary = marry = merry > horse = hoarse > pearl = purl caught = cot are phonetically different sounds, but most Asians cannot distinguish them. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/123 "2004-09-25T20:50:36Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > **Blowero** , I apologize – I hadn’t meant to come off as condescending. Apology accepted. Thank you. > [@](#): > > I thought you were saying something like “No Californian could ever hope to learn to distinguish those two vowels.” The point I was trying to get across was that, to my own personal experience, many Californians _have_ in fact learned to do so, even when the distinction was not made in their native dialect. No, that wasn’t my point. My point was, in _our_ dialect (75% of us, anyway), the “au” sound doesn’t exist. I’m sure we could learn to say it, but there is no point in doing so. That makes about as much sense as leaning how to say “y’all” because that’s what they do in Texas. There’s no right or wrong here, just different dialects. The pronounciation guides in dictionaries are merely reflective of the way people pronounce words, and can’t possibly reflect _all_ regional differences. They are not prescriptive. I would think that a linguist would make it his _business_ to learn all regional variations, but it’s a little presumptuous to suggest that the East Coast is right and the West Coast ought\* to learn how to talk like _they_ do. \*Or should that be “ot”? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/124 "2004-09-25T21:28:00Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > My point was, in _our_ dialect (75% of us, anyway), the “au” sound doesn’t exist. I’m sure we could learn to say it, but there is no point in doing so. That makes about as much sense as leaning how to say “y’all” because that’s what they do in Texas. I’m sure many “cot=caught” folks don’t often come across a reason to learn to recognize the distinction, but some do. The phonetic students I have in mind learn it (any many other fine distinctions) so that they may accurately transcribe speech wherever in the world their fieldwork may take them. Also, students of languages such as Italian, Russian, and Swedish will learn to distinguish these vowels during the course of their studies. Lastly, there is the case of simply making oneself understood in isolated instances such as the “Don/Dawn” story on the previous page of this thread. Admittedly, this is highly unlikely to become a stumbling block to conversation with another English speaker. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/125 "2004-09-26T01:37:26Z")
> [@W. Fikere Tomba](#): > > I have read that your way of pronouncing these words is limited to the southern U.S. Unfortunately I can’t remember where I read that. It certainly _sounds_ like a Southern pronunciation. “pen” and “pin” are pronounced alike in County Kerry, and I believe New Zealand also. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/126 "2004-09-26T01:38:24Z")
Can I make a what may be a preposturous conjecture here? Maybe, just maybe, a good number of us have no idea _how_ we really say words. Maybe, like me, you only imagine them differently. I say this because in teaching my wife English, correct pronunciation is one of the keys. And I catch myself time after time saying the word the “correct” way when reciting it, but then saying it a completely different way when speaking at 100 words per minute. That is, I tend to take verbal shortcuts. Of course this frustrates my wife to no end. For example: toward. Reciting the word, it’s two syllables. Tuh-ward. Saying it normally in a sentance, it’s more like “tord.” ---
**Author:** ![TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tellmei_mnotcrazy/32/3419_2.png) [@TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TellMeI_mNotCrazy)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/127 "2004-09-26T02:04:13Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > For example: toward. Reciting the word, it’s two syllables. Tuh-ward. Saying it normally in a sentance, it’s more like “tord.” Funny, this thread had reminded me of this exact word. When I recite the prepositions (don’t ask) I say “To-ward” when I get to that word. In conversation, I say it similar to you (“tward”). Comfortable is another good example. I say com-fer-tuh-bull when reciting the word, but “Comf-ter-bull” when actually saying it. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/128 "2004-09-26T02:23:13Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > I’m sure many “cot=caught” folks don’t often come across a reason to learn to recognize the distinction, but some do. The phonetic students I have in mind learn it (any many other fine distinctions) so that they may accurately transcribe speech wherever in the world their fieldwork may take them. Yeah, um - didn’t I just say that, i.e. “I would think that a linguist would make it his business to learn all regional variations”??? > [@](#): > > Lastly, there is the case of simply making oneself understood in isolated instances such as the “Don/Dawn” story on the previous page of this thread. Admittedly, this is highly unlikely to become a stumbling block to conversation with another English speaker. I have yet to have any difficulty with it. Believe it or not, when people tell me they caught a fish, I almost _never_ think they’re talking about a bed. :rolleyes: Well, I guess there’s always _one_ prescriptionist snob in every thread… ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/129 "2004-09-26T02:57:56Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Yeah, um - didn’t I just say that, i.e. “I would think that a linguist would make it his business to learn all regional variations”??? We’re speaking past each other a little bit here. Being familiar with the dialects of a given language is a different matter than being familiar with the inventory of human speech sounds. I’m being pedantic, and none of this discussion really matters. However, I am a little frustrated with myself that I am having a hard time communicating nuance and intent in this thread. > [@blowero](#): > > I have yet to have any difficulty with it. Believe it or not, when people tell me they caught a fish, I almost _never_ think they’re talking about a bed. :rolleyes: I had meant to concede exactly this point fully in my previous post. If it seemed like I was holding back, I’m sorry. > [@blowero](#): > > Well, I guess there’s always _one_ prescriptionist snob in every thread… Absolutely not – I consider all dialects of English to be equally valid. In no way do I consider your pronunciation of these words to be incorrect. I never laid that out clearly before in this thread. Here’s what I’m still mulling, though – **amarinth** is also of the “cot=caught” dialect, and yet he/she said he/she could readily distinguish the vowels in question. You said you cannot (I think?). What I am thinking is “why can **amarinth** (representing a subset of West Coast speakers) but not **blowero** (representing another subset of WC speakers)?” I am interested in that question academically – I like to think I am able to ponder that without making a value judgment of any kind. Apparently, I am nevertheless inadvertantly communicating a value judgment to you. ---
**Author:** ![W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/W.Fikere_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/130 "2004-09-26T04:58:00Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > Can I make a what may be a preposturous conjecture here? Maybe, just maybe, a good number of us have no idea _how_ we really say words. Maybe, like me, you only imagine them differently. That’s not preposterous at all; it’s generally true. I think it explains why so many people are unaware of subtle dialect differences like the ones we’ve been discussing, even though they encounter them all the time—normal speech is sloppy enough to cover the differences up. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/131 "2004-09-26T05:08:40Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Yeah, um - didn’t I just say that, i.e. “I would think that a linguist would make it his business to learn all regional variations”??? > > I have yet to have any difficulty with it. Believe it or not, when people tell me they caught a fish, I almost _never_ think they’re talking about a bed. :rolleyes: > > Well, I guess there’s always _one_ prescriptionist snob in every thread… It is similar with people who study music, they can distinguish between pitches perfectly, but cannot reproduce it themselves. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/132 "2004-09-26T06:52:40Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > [url"[http://asstudents.unco.edu/faculty/tbredehoft/UNCclasses/ENG419/Phonetics.html](http://asstudents.unco.edu/faculty/tbredehoft/UNCclasses/ENG419/Phonetics.html)"]Here’s another set of vowel listening samples. > > Those who pronounce “cot” and “caught” the same: scroll down halfway and find the samples for “Bob” and “bought”. Do those vowels sound alike? Listen to them a few times and see if a difference becomes apparent. > > For me, “cot” and the sample “Bob” have the same vowel. > > For me, “caught”, the sample “bought” and “law” have the same vowel. Cot/Caught both sound like “Bought” (and ought and shot and…) not “Bob” Even after listening to the sample I can’t imagine how one would say Cot with the sound from Bob without it sounding more like Cat than cot. Around here Caught and Cot, and Taught and Tot are the same as are Don and Dawn. Once upon a time one of my hall directors met with the upperclassmen on move-in day. She told us that she and her SO were glad to be in NH, and her SO was thrilled that _she_ would be seeing snow for the first time. You could see the surprised comprehension on all our faces D-a-w-n, not D-o-n like we’d thought. Apparently wherever see she was from (south west, I believe) either said said Dawn the way we say both, or they say them the same too. Arron and Erin, on the other hand, are just enough different that when my friend Erin, who dated Arron, was spoken about in the same sentence as her boyfriend we usually didn’t confuse if the speaker meant him or her. Draw and Drawer are pretty close too, but I _know_ that’s regional. Marry, Merry, and Mary are all different. Concord and Conquered (con-kurd) almost the same, but Concorde (con cord) is different, so it makes that joke about naming the kid for Concord NH in the Concorde car commerical fall very flat. ---
**Author:** ![StephenG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@StephenG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StephenG)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/133 "2004-09-26T07:56:56Z")
As a Boston native, I pronounce “cot” and “caught” identically. But I diferentiate between “Mary”, “marry”, and “merry”. > [@bordelond](#): > > In almost all varieties of English, the vowel in “coat” is a > diphthong – the back of the tongue moves upward throughout the duration of the vowel. > > The vowel(s) in “cot” and “caught” are not commonly diphthongs in English, so lip rounding alone won’t quite get you to “coat”. You will be pronouncing something kiinda close, though. The vowel in “coat” is a diphthong?! So it’s like “cow-t”? For me, it’s a simple long o (said “oh”), like in “road”. > [@John Mace](#): > > Are there no Bostonians around? > > Some Boston accents (and there are more than one) will make “top” sound like “tawp”. After all, everyone knows that a “top” is something you put over things to keep them from getting rained on! 🙂 _salutes_ Reporting for duty! I would say “tarp” as “tahp” – same vowel as in “father”. (Er, as in “fathah”. So, yes, “farther” and “father” are distinguishable only by context.) I would not use “tawp” to have the same vowel sound as “cop”. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/134 "2004-09-26T08:27:26Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Here’s what I’m still mulling, though – **amarinth** is also of the “cot=caught” dialect, and yet he/she said he/she could readily distinguish the vowels in question. You said you cannot (I think?). Oh, I see; you are misunderstanding me. I may have said that at first, but after some people here kindly posted links to sound files, I can indeed hear a difference. I really explained it all quite clearly, I thought; I even posted a very detailed analogy to colors using the smilie colors. I don’t really want to waste everyone’s time repeating it all. If you go back to that post, I think you’ll get what I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/135 "2004-09-26T08:30:04Z")
Well actually, maybe I can explain it in a nutshell. I think we’d all agree that a 6-year-old girl saying the word “ball” sounds different than a 40-year-old man saying the world “ball”, yet we still recognize both sounds as being THE SAME WORD. That doesn’t mean we can’t hear the difference between the two. Does that help clear things up? ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/136 "2004-09-26T08:36:23Z")
> [@ouryL](#): > > It is similar with people who study music, they can distinguish between pitches perfectly, but cannot reproduce it themselves. It’s not really that people _cannot_, it’s that they _don’t_. People from Texas most certainly _could_ say “all of you”, but they say “y’all”. People on the West Coast probably _could_ make a different sound for “ou”, but they _don’t_. It’s not a matter of ability at all. This is becoming very frustrating that people aren’t understanding such a basic idea. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/137 "2004-09-26T14:24:18Z")
> [@StephenG](#): > > The vowel in “coat” is a diphthong?! So it’s like “cow-t”? For me, it’s a simple long o (said “oh”), like in “road”. No, not “cow-t” – the vowel in “road”, the “simple long o”, said “oh” is a diphthong in English. It’s not as obvious as the diphthongs in English “bout” and “bite” because in those words, the tongue’s highest point moves along two axes – from down to up and from middle to back/front (respectively). In the diphthong in “coat”, the tongue barely moves in the front-to-back axis, and it only jogs a slight bit up on the up-down axis. FWIW, the “simple long a” in “bait” is also a diphthong. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/138 "2004-09-26T14:25:19Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Oh, I see; you are misunderstanding me. I may have said that at first, but after some people here kindly posted links to sound files, I can indeed hear a difference. I really explained it all quite clearly, I thought; I even posted a very detailed analogy to colors using the smilie colors. I don’t really want to waste everyone’s time repeating it all. If you go back to that post, I think you’ll get what I’m saying. Point taken. ---
**Author:** ![W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/W.Fikere_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/139 "2004-09-26T16:47:07Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > It’s not really that people _cannot_, it’s that they _don’t_. People from Texas most certainly _could_ say “all of you”, but they say “y’all”. People on the West Coast probably _could_ make a different sound for “ou”, but they _don’t_. It’s not a matter of ability at all. This is becoming very frustrating that people aren’t understanding such a basic idea. I understand, but I don’t agree. While people are certainly _capable_ of making sounds that don’t appear in their language or dialect, it usually takes practice and often they never get it quite right. That’s why foreigners have foreign accents. Children below about twelve years old find it easy to imitate foreign sounds. After that, changes in the brain make it difficult for most people. ---
**Author:** ![Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bambi_Hassenpfeffer)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/140 "2004-09-26T18:39:59Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Concord and Conquered (con-kurd) almost the same, but Concorde (con cord) is different, so it makes that joke about naming the kid for Concord NH in the Concorde car commerical fall very flat. Um, I always thought the joke in there was that the daughter was conceived in the Concorde – which may be why they pulled it from the air so quickly. No offense to you and yours, but I doubt most people in the US (thanks to our stellar educational system) have even heard of Concord NH outside of the context of the Revolutionary War. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742.md?page=8)