# Do American accents distinguish "aw" and short "o" sounds? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 23, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742 "2004-09-23T20:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/141 "2004-09-26T20:24:19Z")
> [@W. Fikere Tomba](#): > > I understand, but I don’t agree. While people are certainly _capable_ of making sounds that don’t appear in their language or dialect, it usually takes practice and often they never get it quite right. That’s why foreigners have foreign accents. > > Children below about twelve years old find it easy to imitate foreign sounds. After that, changes in the brain make it difficult for most people. I don’t disagree with that. What you said is true. But what _I_ was saying was that we West Coasters aren’t even _trying_ to make that sound. It’s like saying, “People from the South eats grits because they don’t know how to cook potatoes”, which is false. Whether they can cook potatoes is immaterial; they eat grits because that’s simply how they do things there. ---
**Author:** ![W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/W.Fikere_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/142 "2004-09-26T20:52:35Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > What you said is true. But what _I_ was saying was that we West Coasters aren’t even _trying_ to make that sound. It’s like saying, “People from the South eats grits because they don’t know how to cook potatoes”, which is false. Whether they can cook potatoes is immaterial; they eat grits because that’s simply how they do things there. Got it. In cases like this, any difference in ability is the consequence of different behaviors, not the cause. Southerners may have weaker potato-cooking skills, but that’s _because_ they eat grits instead. I don’t think anyone in this thread has been implying that Californians have an innate difficulty pronouncing certain sounds. What’s been discussed is the possibility of Californian adults (e.g., college students studying linguistics) learning to pronounce sounds not in their dialect. However, I think most of the roughly 25% of Californians who say _cot_ and _caught_ differently probably learned it as kids from their parents, not as adults in a classroom. An interesting question is whether Spanish-speaking immigrants who learn English as adults in California learn to distinguish these sounds. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/143 "2004-09-26T23:18:18Z")
> [@W. Fikere Tomba](#): > > I don’t think anyone in this thread has been implying that Californians have an innate difficulty pronouncing certain sounds. What’s been discussed is the possibility of Californian adults (e.g., college students studying linguistics) learning to pronounce sounds not in their dialect. > > However, I think most of the roughly 25% of Californians who say _cot_ and _caught_ differently probably learned it as kids from their parents, not as adults in a classroom. First of all, back to Sausalito, Vowel 1 is more representative of how I speak. Second, I think the point made in the second paragraph in the above quote is probably valid - California has a large population of people born elsewhere, and even instate, there are regional accents. There are places in the Central Valley where born and raised Californians have STRONG Okie accents, for example. Third, the point in the first paragraph seems obvious to me. It’s been a couple years since I’ve lived in California and I definitely have picked up a Midwestern accent. (My parents - both born in California, btw - tease me about it when I say something particularly amusing.) I do use sounds that are outside of my native dialect. But this particular sound (the caught/cot thing) is pretty subtle and at least for me, difficult to imitate and even hear. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/144 "2004-09-27T17:56:47Z")
> [@SnakeSpirit](#): > > I pronounce saucw as sawce, but I pronounce Sausalito as souse-ah-leedo. > [@Kyla](#): > > I don’t know if I’m reading this right, but I grew up near Sausalito, and it is definitely pronounced, in the regional dialect, “sauce-a-lito”. Is that what you’re saying you can’t imagine? > [@Voodoochile](#): > > Cot = shot = ah+t > Caught = aught = k+awe+t; similar to ‘awww shucks’. > > in ‘He got caught’, the last two dont ryhme. > > Related, its always been awe-sum, rather than Os(ahhs)-sum, unless the ah in ah-sum was being deliberately pushed to the back of the throat to be cool or something; surfer dialect and all that. > > Same with Don and Dawn - ah and awe, respectively, though the difference is less pronounced than between cot and caught. > > Dawn is usually pronounced more like Sean/Shawn/Shaun, rather than Shot or Shon. I’d just like to reiterate that for those of us who have accents that are different from yours, these kinds of posts really tell us nothing. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/145 "2004-09-27T18:07:19Z")
> [@W. Fikere Tomba](#): > > I don’t think anyone in this thread has been implying that Californians have an innate difficulty pronouncing certain sounds. No, it was the other way around. Bordelond mistakenly thought that _I_ was implying that, which I was not. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/146 "2004-09-27T18:27:10Z")
By the way, if you look at the Harvard survey, it’s not just California, it’s ALL of the Western states that pronounce cot and caught the same. In fact, the percentage of people who pronounce them the same in other western states is even _higher_ than in California. The Midwest tends to be about 1/2 and 1/2. ---
**Author:** ![W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/W.Fikere_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/147 "2004-09-27T18:36:06Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I’d just like to reiterate that for those of us who have accents that are different from yours, these kinds of posts really tell us nothing. There’s no good way to communicate accents in normal spelling. You can use specialized phonetic alphabets, which most people don’t know how to interpret. You can describe mouth movements in minute detail, which works for some people. (I learned to hear and pronounce Russian palatalized consonants mainly by reading descriptions of what the tongue does.) But sound recordings are usually the best thing. However, it can be interesting to compile lists of words that are pronounced with one vowel or the other. Spelling can often predict this—_o_ and _a_ versus _au_ and _aw_ in this case—but sometimes not. For example, in my dialect, _fog_ does not rime with _frog_. That doesn’t tell you how I say them, but it’s interesting nonetheless. > [@blowero](#): > > By the way, if you look at the Harvard survey, it’s not just California, it’s ALL of the Western states that pronounce cot and caught the same. In fact, the percentage of people who pronounce them the same in other western states is even higher than in California. The Midwest tends to be about 1/2 and 1/2. Yes, I was focusing on California just because the Harvard survey is broken down by state, so it makes sense to pick one. ---
**Author:** ![umop\_ap\_sdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/dbc845/32.png) [@umop\_ap\_sdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/umop_ap_sdn)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/148 "2004-09-27T20:27:58Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I’d just like to reiterate that for those of us who have accents that are different from yours, these kinds of posts really tell us nothing. For American accents: “aw” = “or” without the R; “o” = “are” without the R. ---
**Author:** ![TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tellmei_mnotcrazy/32/3419_2.png) [@TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TellMeI_mNotCrazy)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/149 "2004-09-27T20:31:41Z")
> [@cityboy916](#): > > For American accents: > “aw” = “or” without the R; > “o” = “are” without the R. I hate to beat a dead horse but this still doesn’t work (and for me it’s inaccurate). These attempts are like telling a color-blind person that purple is blue mixed with red. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/150 "2004-09-27T21:45:38Z")
> [@cityboy916](#): > > “aw” = “or” without the R So “aw” is the long-o sound??? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/151 "2004-09-27T21:51:45Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > So “aw” is the long-o sound??? So “or” rhymes with “oar”??? ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/152 "2004-09-27T22:26:38Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > So “aw” is the long-o sound??? Y’know what I think the problem is? When one combines sounds, there is a point _between_ the two sounds where the first sound necessarily changes, but the second sound hasn’t been fully formed yet. When we say “or” we don’t say oh-ruh, but rather we make a continuous sound, like ooooaaarrrrr, the ‘aaa’ sound being what’s coming out of your mouth for the brief instant that you are reforming your oral cavity to make the ‘r’ sound. It IS the long-o sound, but it changes for a brief moment as you transition to the consonant sound. And I think linguists are considering the whole thing as a _seperate_ vowel sound, when it really isn’t. In my dictionary, for example, the word “oat” is shown as a long-o sound, but the word “or” is not. But I find it impossible to say “or” without having some sort of intermediate sound come out between the ‘o’ and the ‘r’, whereas saying ‘oat’ merely requires the striking of the tongue on the roof of the mouth, without having to change the shape of the oral cavity. I don’t believe it’s really a seperate vowel sound; the difference is simply the ending consonant. ---
**Author:** ![W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/W.Fikere_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/153 "2004-09-27T22:26:52Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > So “or” rhymes with “oar”??? For me it does, but I don’t use a long _o_ sound for either of those words. See my earlier point about the inadequacy of ordinary spelling to convey such information. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/154 "2004-09-27T22:33:04Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > So “or” rhymes with “oar”??? Around here it does, although in conversation “or” tends to sound more like “er”. If I emphasize the word (“we’ll combine the values with bitwise OR”), it sounds exactly like “oar”. ---
**Author:** ![W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/W.Fikere_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/155 "2004-09-27T22:38:29Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Y’know what I think the problem is? When one combines sounds, there is a point _between_ the two sounds where the first sound necessarily changes, but the second sound hasn’t been fully formed yet. When we say “or” we don’t say oh-ruh, but rather we make a continuous sound, like ooooaaarrrrr, the ‘aaa’ sound being what’s coming out of your mouth for the brief instant that you are reforming your oral cavity to make the ‘r’ sound. It IS the long-o sound, but it changes for a brief moment as you transition to the consonant sound. And I think linguists are considering the whole thing as a _seperate_ vowel sound, when it really isn’t. In my dictionary, for example, the word “oat” is shown as a long-o sound, but the word “or” is not. But I find it impossible to say “or” without having some sort of intermediate sound come out between the ‘o’ and the ‘r’, whereas saying ‘oat’ merely requires the striking of the tongue on the roof of the mouth, without having to change the shape of the oral cavity. I don’t believe it’s really a seperate vowel sound; the difference is simply the ending consonant. This may be true for your speech, but I am quite sure that when I say _oar_ and _oat_ my mouth does not even START in the same position. It’s just a different sound. As an experiment, try saying _O-ring_ and _oaring._ These sound different when I say them (even quickly and sloppily) and the main difference is the quality of the initial vowel. Don’t try to describe pronunciation in ways that make the spelling logical. It doesn’t work, because spelling is not the basis of most pronunciation habits. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/156 "2004-09-28T07:32:38Z")
> [@W. Fikere Tomba](#): > > This may be true for your speech, but I am quite sure that when I say _oar_ and _oat_ my mouth does not even START in the same position. It’s just a different sound. Well that’s fine for you. My mouth most definitely starts in the rounded, long-o position for both words, as do the soundfiles on the Merriam-Webster website. > [@](#): > > As an experiment, try saying _O-ring_ and _oaring._ These sound different when I say them (even quickly and sloppily) and the main difference is the quality of the initial vowel. Actually, the sound _starts_ exactly the same for both words. But at any rate, that’s not the same thing. In “o-ring”, the “r” is the _initial_ sound of the word ring, and can easily be articulated as such without affecting the long-o sound. Try _this_ experiment. Say “o-ring”, but leave off the “ing”, and have the “r” be the _terminating_ sound. I find it impossible to do so without changing the long-o sound in some way. Similarly, try saying “Eros” with a long-e sound. Pretty simple, right? Now try saying “ear” with a long-e sound. When the “r” is the _terminating_ sound, it’s virtually impossible to maintain the “eeeee” sound all the way to the “r” without having it change right before the “r” sounds. > [@](#): > > Don’t try to describe pronunciation in ways that make the spelling logical. It doesn’t work, because spelling is not the basis of most pronunciation habits. Uh, wasn’t doing that, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tellmei_mnotcrazy/32/3419_2.png) [@TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TellMeI_mNotCrazy)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/157 "2004-09-28T13:47:26Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Now try saying “ear” with a long-e sound. When the “r” is the _terminating_ sound, it’s virtually impossible to maintain the “eeeee” sound all the way to the “r” without having it change right before the “r” sounds. Firstly, (and this is just a general comment, not to anyone in particular) I don’t get how dialectal differences can get to be such a heated subject. Tomato, tomahto, and all that jazz. But, I did want to mention that in Afrikaans -ier is done exactly like you’ve demonstrated above, and one of the _hardest_ things for me to say. For example, the word “vier”(four). The books tell you too say the word fee- and then tack an r on the end without changing the shape of your e. It’s easier said than done, and to this day I still struggle with it. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/158 "2004-09-28T14:15:09Z")
> [@TellMeI'mNotCrazy](#): > > Firstly, (and this is just a general comment, not to anyone in particular) I don’t get how dialectal differences can get to be such a heated subject. Tomato, tomahto, and all that jazz. > > But, I did want to mention that in Afrikaans -ier is done exactly like you’ve demonstrated above, and one of the _hardest_ things for me to say. For example, the word “vier”(four). The books tell you too say the word fee- and then tack an r on the end without changing the shape of your e. It’s easier said than done, and to this day I still struggle with it. I’m guessing that in Afrikaans, “r” stands for a trilled, flapped, or uvular sound rather than the “vowel approximant glide” in standard American accents. The way most Americans pronounce “r,” it’s closer to a vowel than a consonant, so putting it next to a vowel tends to force a diphthongal effect. ---
**Author:** ![W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@W.Fikere\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/W.Fikere_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/159 "2004-09-28T17:09:21Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Well that’s fine for you. My mouth most definitely starts in the rounded, long-o position for both words, as do the soundfiles on the Merriam-Webster website. Please don’t snap at me. I was saying that you can’t apply your own speech patterns as a general rule about how “we” say words, because of dialect differences. If I implied that there was something wrong with your speech, I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to do that. Also, and I should have said this before, I agree with your point about the effect of the _r_ on the preceding vowel. > [@blowero](#): > > Actually, the sound _starts_ exactly the same for both words. If you are talking about _my_ pronunciation, you’re wrong. If you’re talking about your own, I’m sure you’re right—I certainly can’t claim to know better than you how you speak. > [@blowero](#): > > But at any rate, that’s not the same thing. In “o-ring”, the “r” is the _initial_ sound of the word ring, and can easily be articulated as such without affecting the long-o sound. Unless you stop your voice between syllables, you still have to keep vocalizing while moving from one position to the other. But I’ll grant you that as a compound word, _O-ring_ may be articulated differently, so the comparison is probably not apt. > [@blowero](#): > > Try _this_ experiment. Say “o-ring”, but leave off the “ing”, and have the “r” be the _terminating_ sound. I find it impossible to do so without changing the long-o sound in some way. I can minimize the change if I try, but you’re right. However, even if I make no attempt to preserve the vowel, it doesn’t come out the same as _or,_ because my jaw is more open right at the start. > [@blowero](#): > > Similarly, try saying “Eros” with a long-e sound. Pretty simple, right? Now try saying “ear” with a long-e sound. When the “r” is the _terminating_ sound, it’s virtually impossible to maintain the “eeeee” sound all the way to the “r” without having it change right before the “r” sounds. When I say _Eros_ with a long _e,_ making no attempt to minimize the effect of the _r,_ the first syllable comes out exactly the same as when I say _ear._ So these two experiments don’t have the same result for me. When I say _or,_ I begin on a vowel that I do not use (as far as I know) anywhere but before _r._ It is similar to the way many people here in Iowa, and elsewhere in the Upper Midwest, say the long _o._ But I don’t say the long _o_ that way. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742/160 "2004-09-28T17:57:49Z")
> [@W. Fikere Tomba](#): > > When I say _or,_ I begin on a vowel that I do not use (as far as I know) anywhere but before _r._ It is similar to the way many people here in Iowa, and elsewhere in the Upper Midwest, say the long _o._ But I don’t say the long _o_ that way. But I wasn’t talking about YOU. You jumped in and interjected your own personal pronounciation into what I was saying. I do not have a special sound that I use only for the word “or”, nor, apparently, does CurtC, the person to whom I was responding. I still maintain that, IMO, some people hear the long-o sound as being a completely different vowel sound when it’s affected by the trailing consonant. If you personally happen to _actually_ use a completely different vowel sound, that’s fine - I wasn’t talking to you. At any rate, I’m tired of arguing with you. Perhaps we should both stop responding to each other in this thread. You came off as being argumentative, pedantic, and condescending about it. If that wasn’t your intention, then I apologize for my reaction. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-american-accents-distinguish-aw-and-short-o-sounds/265742.md?page=9)