# Do Americans really believe in God, or do they just say they do? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 29, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-americans-really-believe-in-god-or-do-they-just-say-they-do/741670 "2015-12-29T19:29:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![DrForrester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8edcca/32.png) [@DrForrester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrForrester)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-americans-really-believe-in-god-or-do-they-just-say-they-do/741670/161 "2016-01-01T20:27:38Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > That’s not a crazy person acting sane while still being crazy; that’s a sane person _sanely_ going crazy. An irrational person cultivating an irrational delusion makes sense; a rational person _rationally_ cultivating an irrational delusion, less so. This is where I believe that you are not understanding the nature of mental illness. Here are some examples - 1. James Holmes 2. someone who suffers from PTSD 3. someone who is addicted to gambling 4. suicide bomber (religiously compelled) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-americans-really-believe-in-god-or-do-they-just-say-they-do/741670/162 "2016-01-01T20:32:31Z")
> [@DrForrester](#): > > It’s possible that you were trying to be sarcastic in your reply to the other fellow. I understand. But, you are capable of more. I’m not trying to be sarcastic. If one person tells me whether they believe in God, and a second person tells me the first is irrational and delusional – well, I can disregard the second person just as easily as I can figure the first person in fact reacts in irrational and delusional ways. And I can, I’ll admit, take the third option of assuming his irrational delusions are a rational response to a non-delusional experience – but it’s not sarcasm to say (a) that seems a lot harder; and (b) I have no need of that hypothesis. I know people who believe they believe in God, and I know people who believe they _don’t_ believe in God, and I earnestly find both types of people sane – and I say, with perfect sincerity, that if I assume for the sake of argument that either or both of them are reacting irrationally and delusionally, then I’d naturally wonder without a trace of sarcasm whether they got that way by reacting irrationally and delusionally. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-americans-really-believe-in-god-or-do-they-just-say-they-do/741670/163 "2016-01-01T20:35:35Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > You’re talking about people who actually believe they believe something they don’t believe; they aren’t intentionally putting on an act for the world, like James Holmes; they’re irrationally deluding themselves, _and_ irrationally deluding themselves into thinking they aren’t irrationally deluding themselves. And if someone can do _that,_ I have “boundless” faith in their ability to be governed by irrational delusions. No, we are talking about people who say they believe in something when really they don’t know. Either they haven’t thought the issue through enough or they choose to ignore all the doubts they’ve had. I wouldn’t say these people are exactly “irrational”. They just don’t know what they know. Just a WAG, but I’m guessing this is something most people go through at some period of their life, at least once. I can speak of “believing” in atoms because I have trust in science and I don’t have any reason NOT to believe in them. If someone were to ask me if I believe in atoms, I’d say sure. I’m a scientist, right? I am not an ignorant fool, right? But if there was a scientific breakthrough tomorrow demonstrating the non-existence of atoms, I’d probably be the first to go along with it. Which kinda shows how little I believe in atoms, when you come right down to it. The fact that I say one thing and actually feel another way is not evidence of “irrationality”. It’s evidence of me being self-contradictory–which could be the result of insanity or something else completely different. Like being a human being who wants to fit in and be accepted. You are making leaps in logic that are completely unfounded. It is perfectly possible to delude yourself in one way (“These jeans don’t make my ass look fat, right?”) and still be affected by social pressure (“Because no one will like me if I have a fat ass, right?”) ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-americans-really-believe-in-god-or-do-they-just-say-they-do/741670/164 "2016-01-01T20:45:08Z")
delusional - a talking donkey, resurrection, casting demons into pigs, causing the earth to stop spinning so that the sun stands still in the sky, those are all delusional beliefs, if you try to convince yourself they happened you are pursuing a delusional line of thought irrational - people are bad, the best way to deal with that is to kill them all with a flood instead of having them die peacefully in their sleep… people need to go to hell forever to atone for sins committed during a brief, temporary life on earth… that god will bless you with a full pantry of food and half way around the world kids are starving to death… if you believe any of that is logical you are thinking in an irrational manner ---
**Author:** ![DrForrester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8edcca/32.png) [@DrForrester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrForrester)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-americans-really-believe-in-god-or-do-they-just-say-they-do/741670/165 "2016-01-01T21:02:49Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > delusional - a talking donkey, resurrection, casting demons into pigs, causing the earth to stop spinning so that the sun stands still in the sky, those are all delusional beliefs, if you try to convince yourself they happened you are pursuing a delusional line of thought > > irrational - people are bad, the best way to deal with that is to kill them all with a flood instead of having them die peacefully in their sleep… people need to go to hell forever to atone for sins committed during a brief, temporary life on earth… that god will bless you with a full pantry of food and half way around the world kids are starving to death… if you believe any of that is logical you are thinking in an irrational manner You have a point. It’s genuinely hard to not agree. But, when I settle back and really let the ideas digest, I think that using terms like delusional or irrational is probably too quick and too harsh. Probably the more correct term would be [cognitive dissonance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance). I once knew a man who genuinely believed that he was Jesus and asked his wife and children to nail him to a cross made from railroad ties. He was delusional. Take a person who says that he believes in the resurrection of Jesus. Is such a person suffering from the same illness as the first guy? Maybe you would be comfortable in saying that they are different expressions of the same underlying condition. But, I am not. Maybe I’m wrong. Certainly wouldn’t be the first time. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-americans-really-believe-in-god-or-do-they-just-say-they-do/741670/166 "2016-01-01T21:12:28Z")
> [@DrForrester](#): > > You have a point. It’s genuinely hard to not agree. But, when I settle back and really let the ideas digest, I think that using terms like delusional or irrational is probably too quick and too harsh. Probably the more correct term would be [cognitive dissonance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance). > > I once knew a man who genuinely believed that he was Jesus and asked his wife and children to nail him to a cross made from railroad ties. He was delusional. > > Take a person who says that he believes in the resurrection of Jesus. Is such a person suffering from the same illness as the first guy? Maybe you would be comfortable in saying that they are different expressions of the same underlying condition. But, I am not. > > Maybe I’m wrong. Certainly wouldn’t be the first time. I agree that cognitive dissonance is a very precise, incredibly accurate term for the phenomena that we are talking about. I also think that terms like delusional and irrational are terms which have two sets of use, one very literal and precise, and, the other, descriptive in an everyday sense of the word. When we say Jeffery Dammer was delusional it is a bit different than saying people who think the earth is 6000 years old are delusional. I think it is pretty clear that delusional has a precise psychiatric definition that is different than the broader everyday term. I’m not sure why people would not understand this. It seems pretty clear to me their are different uses of the same word. ---
**Author:** ![DrForrester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8edcca/32.png) [@DrForrester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrForrester)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-americans-really-believe-in-god-or-do-they-just-say-they-do/741670/167 "2016-01-01T21:27:41Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I also think that terms like delusional and irrational are terms which have two sets of use, one very literal and precise, and, the other, descriptive in an everyday sense of the word. […] I’m not sure why people would not understand this. It seems pretty clear to me their are different uses of the same word. I am an atheist and don’t believe in any of the items you listed as being delusional or irrational. So, I certainly don’t take it as an insult, personally, when you would use such words. However, when I read things like that, I try to ask myself how I would feel, as a typical religious person, reading words like those. I think I would be insulted if you said that both Jeffrey Dahmer and I are delusional. And, this is because words like “delusional” are inflammatory. When you can use different language to achieve the same purpose, that would be the better approach. Not the only approach. Not the easiest approach. But, in my opinion, the better one. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-americans-really-believe-in-god-or-do-they-just-say-they-do/741670/168 "2016-01-01T21:34:06Z")
> [@DrForrester](#): > > I am an atheist and don’t believe in any of the items you listed as being delusional or irrational. The first set are scientifically impossible and the second are logically inconsistent. ---
**Author:** ![DrForrester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8edcca/32.png) [@DrForrester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrForrester)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-americans-really-believe-in-god-or-do-they-just-say-they-do/741670/169 "2016-01-01T21:43:09Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > The first set are scientifically impossible and the second are logically inconsistent. I think you may have misunderstood. I am not disagreeing with your assessment of the items. Purest fantasy, by my mind. Again, in my opinion, anyone who believes these things - and has given them some consideration - but, believes them despite this - is experiencing cognitive dissonance. If I wasn’t clear, I am sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-americans-really-believe-in-god-or-do-they-just-say-they-do/741670/170 "2016-01-01T21:48:31Z")
> [@DrForrester](#): > > I think you may have misunderstood. I am not disagreeing with your assessment of the items. Purest fantasy, by my mind. Again, in my opinion, anyone who believes these things - and has given them some consideration - but, believes them despite this - is experiencing cognitive dissonance. > > If I wasn’t clear, I am sorry. OK, I’m not really sure it matters that much anyway. People are going to have slightly different meanings, it will vary from person to person. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-americans-really-believe-in-god-or-do-they-just-say-they-do/741670/171 "2016-01-02T00:56:29Z")
I’m not sure how we morphed into talking about people being delusional in an insane, hallucinatory, psycho sense. When I introduced these terms in the discussion, I thought it was clear I was talking about the type of self-delusional reactions people have all the time when considering uncomfortable sides about themselves. And irrational doesn’t mean crazy manic either. It means acting in contravention to reason and logic. Like voting for a politician who is anti things that would help you, simply because he looks like your favorite teacher in the 3rd grade. Or lying on an anonymous survey when telling the truth is of zero consequence. These are behaviors that \*people \* exhibit Not just the religious. ---
**Author:** ![TheAllSeeingEye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/919ad9/32.png) [@TheAllSeeingEye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheAllSeeingEye)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-americans-really-believe-in-god-or-do-they-just-say-they-do/741670/172 "2016-01-02T02:00:14Z")
just my opinion, but …Chinese like to say that the proper definition of words is essential to arriving at the truth, but have you guys forgotten the counterargument to this - that wise men treat words as mere counters, fools treat them as money? Words themselves have no value no impact to achieve anything. They have no reality. they are a substitute, just as a counter substitutes the commodity. but they are not worth as much as the real thing, i.e. words are not like money when it comes to truth. Therefore, to get beyond definitions, how about we begin with a definition of christianity which arises from christ himself ? Since we are judging people “who is a true christian”- christs own criteria for judging people should be used - who could argue with that ? (paraphrase): judge a tree by its fruit and not its seed i.e. by the results - not the intentions, the beginnings, nor the appearance etc etc. By that criteria - results, christians are a tiny minority, and many of them would call themselves by all kinds of other labels, eg humanitarian, pacifist, eco warrior, but a true christian would be drawn to them. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-americans-really-believe-in-god-or-do-they-just-say-they-do/741670/173 "2016-01-02T02:59:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **SpoilerVirgin** : > Wait…what? That last step is where you lose me. I did in fact go through exactly the process that you describe, coming to the conclusion that God is infinitely greater and more incomprehensible than Michelangelo’s rendition. I even wrote a piece for my (Reform Jewish) confirmation ceremony on that precise topic. But I went directly from “clearly God is far greater than the popular conception” to believing in a greater God. Recognizing that God isn’t an old man with a long beard was a key point in strengthening my faith, not abandoning it. To be clear, I don’t think that that final step is _inevitable_, just easy. I also got to the end of that path with the conclusion “God is greater than we humans can comprehend”. But I can’t really fault someone who got to that same point but reached a different conclusion than I. > [@](#): > > Quoth **Alessan** : > > The most theologically earth-shattering moment of my life was when I learned the meaning of one simple term. The term? “Galactic Supercluster”. It didn’t stop me from believing in God, but I no longer overestimate the interest God has in my personal life. Of course, if God is greater than us in so many other ways, why couldn’t he also have an incomprehensibly higher Dunbar number than we mere mortals? We humans can only form close, personal bonds with about fifty people, but who’s to say that God couldn’t form such bonds with trillions, or googols? ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-americans-really-believe-in-god-or-do-they-just-say-they-do/741670/174 "2016-01-02T04:32:16Z")
I figure if you believe in any part of the supernatural elements contained within the Bible, that implies you accept a God exists. I think most do it because they can’t handle the idea of death being the end, so cling to the concept of an afterlife as it gives them comfort. And if that’s you, the God belief, at least according to Christianity, just automatically comes with it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-americans-really-believe-in-god-or-do-they-just-say-they-do/741670/175 "2016-01-02T15:53:47Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > The first set are scientifically impossible and the second are logically inconsistent. Can you explain what makes a talking donkey-like figure _scientifically_ impossible? As Arthur C. Clarke pointed out, “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” A hundred years from now, we may well be able to splice DNA together and design a donkey that has finer motor control over lips and vocal cords, and enough intelligence to learn simple words. Have we changed the laws of universal science at that point? I would argue that you are on safe ground if you say that the reported events are unlikely in the extreme. But if you say, as you did, that they are “scientifically impossible,” you are making an indefensible claim. Nothing about any of those events are impossible, supposing sufficiently advanced technology. They don’t violate physical laws of the universe. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-americans-really-believe-in-god-or-do-they-just-say-they-do/741670/176 "2016-01-02T15:55:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Can you explain what makes a talking donkey-like figure _scientifically_ impossible? > > As Arthur C. Clarke pointed out, “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” A hundred years from now, we may well be able to splice DNA together and design a donkey that has finer motor control over lips and vocal cords, and enough intelligence to learn simple words. Have we changed the laws of universal science at that point? > > I would argue that you are on safe ground if you say that the reported events are unlikely in the extreme. But if you say, as you did, that they are “scientifically impossible,” you are making an indefensible claim. Nothing about any of those events are impossible, supposing sufficiently advanced technology. They don’t violate physical laws of the universe. 1- If you altered the brain and mouth and throat of a donkey so that it could talk… it wouldn’t be a donkey any more, would it? 2- Regardless, they had no such technology in 250BC ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-americans-really-believe-in-god-or-do-they-just-say-they-do/741670/177 "2016-01-02T19:38:52Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > 1- If you altered the brain and mouth and throat of a donkey so that it could talk… it wouldn’t be a donkey any more, would it? Who cares? It would look like a donkey to the people of the time and they would have reported it as such. That’s precisely why I said, “Can you explain what makes a talking **donkey-like figure** _scientifically_ impossible?” above. > [@](#): > > 2- Regardless, they had no such technology in 250BC If you mean humans – yeah, probably not. But the visitors from Kepler 438b are the ones with the technology. So, again, how is that scientifically impossible as opposed to merely a highly unlikely scenario? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-americans-really-believe-in-god-or-do-they-just-say-they-do/741670/178 "2016-01-02T19:44:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Who cares? It would look like a donkey to the people of the time and they would have reported it as such. That’s precisely why I said, “Can you explain what makes a talking **donkey-like figure** _scientifically_ impossible?” above. > > If you mean humans – yeah, probably not. But the visitors from Kepler 438b are the ones with the technology. > > So, again, how is that scientifically impossible as opposed to merely a highly unlikely scenario? I was not aware that we had Visitors from Kepler 438b in the middle east in 250BC. Perhaps you could provide me with evidence for this claim. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-americans-really-believe-in-god-or-do-they-just-say-they-do/741670/179 "2016-01-02T23:03:22Z")
Yeah… If you allow “What If…?” hypotheses without limitations, then anything is possible, and the scientific method would cease to have any meaning at all. It’s “scientifically possible” that we’re living in a sim, or it’s all a dream, or the devil is creating illusions, etc. It’s also not interesting. If you have to rely on alien technology to explain a Biblical Myth, you’re reaching way too far and trying way too hard. Just go with the conventional excuse. “It’s a miracle.” And miracles are not scientific. **Robert163** is right, and **Bricker** is wrong here. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2016, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-americans-really-believe-in-god-or-do-they-just-say-they-do/741670/180 "2016-01-03T00:11:19Z")
I’ve read of studies where they can somehow tell that under certain inputs, the brains of different people react in a qualitatively different way, i.e. there in increased activity in region X of Subject A’s brain, and no increase in region X, or maybe an increase in region Y, of Subject B’s brain. Does anybody know whether such a study has been done comparing the brains of theists versus atheists when reading, say, the Ontological Argument (which if I’m reading the OP’s posts correctly, he would agree with)? I ask because I literally can’t understand how anyone of normal intelligence and education can read more than a few pages of the Bible without concluding that it’s ridiculous, unless the region of their brains dealing with logic and rationality is completely out of the loop. I know that there are people who are much more intelligent, educated, experienced, etc. than I am who are devout believers, and that’s why I spent so much of my life trying to figure out what I was missing. But the more I learn, the more sure I am that those very smart people are deluding themselves. I can’t prove that there is not a supernatural being who created the universe, but if he had anything to do with writing the Bible, then he’s just fucking with us. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-americans-really-believe-in-god-or-do-they-just-say-they-do/741670.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-americans-really-believe-in-god-or-do-they-just-say-they-do/741670.md?page=10)