# Do angels have a gender (also, Hebrew gender questions) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 7, 2006, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-a-gender-also-hebrew-gender-questions/347401 "2006-03-07T18:00:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2006, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-a-gender-also-hebrew-gender-questions/347401/21 "2006-03-07T23:02:46Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Angels don’t make love: angels ARE love. That is literally the world’s oldest pickup line, dating back to a fruit tree in Mesopotamia ca. 4004 BCE. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-a-gender-also-hebrew-gender-questions/347401/22 "2006-03-08T06:47:06Z")
When Greek gods came down to associate with mortals or cruise chicks, they usually took another guise (swans, bulls, husbands, etc.). Semele (mother of Dionysos) was actually killed/incinertated when she looked upon Zeus in his true form. Angels and G\_d also take guises in the Bible. I wonder what the connection is. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-a-gender-also-hebrew-gender-questions/347401/23 "2006-03-08T07:45:37Z")
I think a quote from Gustav Davidson’s _A Dictionary of Angels_ is apropos here: > [@](#): > > **Female Angels** – in Jewish occult lore, female angels are rare (the Shekinah is one). In gnostic lore there is, pre-eminently, Pistis Sophia (“faith, knowledge”), a great female aeon or archon, or angel. In Arabic legend, female angels are not uncommon and were often the objects of worship or veneration; they were called _benad hasche_, that is, daughters of God. > [@Captain Amazing](#): > > There are three mentioned by name in the bible…Michael, Gabriel, and Satan, none of whom are given any gender, and then others in later, post biblical books (Uriel, Raphael, Peniel, Metatron) That depends on whose bible you’re talking about. The Book of Tobit (or Tobias) is canonical in the Catholic and Orthodox bibles and Raphael plays an important role in that. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-a-gender-also-hebrew-gender-questions/347401/24 "2006-03-08T08:21:35Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > The angels are a different order of being and so don’t have a gender. That’s a non sequitur. Animals and plants are also different orders of being, yet most of them have gender. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-a-gender-also-hebrew-gender-questions/347401/25 "2006-03-08T10:25:57Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I’ll admit that one reason I was wondering about this is the Sodom story and how it’s used to justify homophobia (‘man on man rape=gay’ [if it was rape rather than literally “knowing them” the mob was demanding). If angels have no definite gender, why would the mob’s desire to rape them be considered homosexual? > > To me, even as a kid it always made more sense that the mob literally wanted to “know them” as in “Who are these people? Bring 'em out here and let us talk to them”. Angels clearly have something that sets them apart in appearance from humans- one of the most common things they say in the Bible is “don’t be afraid” and everybody who sees one knows instantly that they’re not a human. To paranoid fortified community dwellers, the presence of “not exactly human” entities (brought in by a non-native no less) would seem to warrant a “let us get to know these people” more than a “ooh yeah! bring the ball gags… that’s what I’m talkin’ about!” reaction.) > > I may be completely wrong. You may be completely right. But isn’t it only the King James bible that uses “know” as a euphemism for “have sex with”, and isn’t an answer available by consulting another version - preferably derived from the source texts and not the AV - in which there isn’t this ambiguity? Or indeed by going to the source? (I’m more of the “Sodom was indeed full of depraved homosexual rapists, but that was only a symptom of what a hellhole it was; it was rotten to the core, and that’s what got it the fire-and-brimstone cure” school of thought, myself) Ball gags? Nah, more fun to hear the little piggies squeal… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-a-gender-also-hebrew-gender-questions/347401/26 "2006-03-08T12:17:39Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > You may be completely right. But isn’t it only the King James bible that uses “know” as a euphemism for “have sex with”, and isn’t an answer available by consulting another version - preferably derived from the source texts and not the AV - in which there isn’t this ambiguity? Or indeed by going to the source? The word used in Hebrew is Ya,da´, and “know” is a literal translation of it. It almost certainly is a euphemism in this passage, as it is in Genesis 4:1 - “And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she concieved”, Genesis 4:25 - " And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth", etc. For a very close parallel: Judges 19:25 : > [@](#): > > But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. In the light of the above, I would agree with your interpretation of Genesis 19. A digression. The KJV is generally a better resource for literal translations than most modern versions, certainly far better than the NIV. However, it doesn’t use the most reliable source texts, and some of its English vocabulary is rather archaic these days. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-a-gender-also-hebrew-gender-questions/347401/27 "2006-03-08T12:59:13Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > That depends on whose bible you’re talking about. The Book of Tobit (or Tobias) is canonical in the Catholic and Orthodox bibles and Raphael plays an important role in that. Right, which is why I specified “in Judaism”. I can’t tell you about other religions’ holy books. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-a-gender-also-hebrew-gender-questions/347401/28 "2006-03-08T14:19:02Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > That’s a non sequitur. Animals and plants are also different orders of being, yet most of them have gender. OK, angels are a different order of being from anything created on the earth. They aren’t similar to humans, plants or animals, and are not related to dead humans at all. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-a-gender-also-hebrew-gender-questions/347401/29 "2006-03-08T14:40:23Z")
OK, people, as far as actual fact goes, we don’t know anything about Angel’s sex. Maybe they do have male and female. Maybe they have other things. We don’t know nor is it relevant, since they probably don’t feel much urge to “know” (_wink_) each other. Of course, it might be amusing if they had other kinds of sexual characteristics… Couldn’t you see al the male angels standing around Heaven’s alleyway drinking beer and sayin’ “Yep.”? Couldn’t you see all the female angels sitting chatting all day at 7,000 words per second? Couldn’t you see both groups launching the biggest flame ever on **Smiling Bandit**? 😃 _Ducks flamefest he unleashed_ ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-a-gender-also-hebrew-gender-questions/347401/30 "2006-03-08T21:47:44Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > I’ll find a cite, but I wasn’t referring to Jesus. The person of Jesus is both fully God and fully human - but he is male by virtue of his humanity, not his divinity. He’s sort of a special case. …and we have a WINNER in the Straight Dope “Understatement of the Year” contest! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-a-gender-also-hebrew-gender-questions/347401/31 "2006-03-08T23:04:17Z")
> [@enigmatic](#): > > She was of the opinion that Angels are not one gender or the other, but both at the same time. Then it’s safe to tell an angel, “Go f\_\_\_ yourself?” :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-a-gender-also-hebrew-gender-questions/347401/32 "2006-03-08T23:24:31Z")
In Arabic the word for angel is _malak_ in the singular, which is grammatically masculine. However, the singular form of this word isn’t used much in the Qur’an. It does use the plural form of the word very frequently: _mala’ikah_, which is feminine. This Arabic feminine plural was borrowed into Swahili as a singular noun meaning ‘angel’, used in love songs for women, as in the hit song “_Nakupenda Malaika_” (I love you, angel), recorded by Miriam Makeba, that was so popular all over Africa in the 1960s. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-a-gender-also-hebrew-gender-questions/347401/33 "2006-03-09T04:32:52Z")
> [@Tevildo](#): > > The word used in Hebrew is Ya,da´, and “know” is a literal translation of it. It almost certainly is a euphemism in this passage, as it is in Genesis 4:1 - “And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she concieved”, Genesis 4:25 - " And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth", etc. . Cite? I see no reason that it shouldn’t be read as “know who they are.” We’re given no other context to suggest that the crowd was there to rape the visitors. Lot’s offer of his daughters suggests that he though he might appeal to the men’s lust in order to distract them from what he presumed to be their murderous inclinations. ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-a-gender-also-hebrew-gender-questions/347401/34 "2006-03-09T06:51:16Z")
> [@cwthree](#): > > Cite? I see no reason that it shouldn’t be read as “know who they are.” We’re given no other context to suggest that the crowd was there to rape the visitors. Lot’s offer of his daughters suggests that he though he might appeal to the men’s lust in order to distract them from what he presumed to be their murderous inclinations. Well, we can’t _prove_ that it’s a euphemism in Genesis 19 - it _might_ be meant literally, although I personally think it’s unlikely. Do you agree that it’s a euphemism for sex in Genesis 4:25, quoted above? And let’s look at the whole passage from Judges: Judges 19:22-26. > [@](#): > > Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him. And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly. Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man’s house where her lord was, till it was light. “Know” is both what the “sons of Belial” wanted to do to the man, and what they actually did to the concubine. It _might_ not be sex, but it’s (a) a “vile thing” that is (b) described as “abuse”. I find it difficult to imagine anything else it might be; it certainly isn’t just “making the acquaintance of”, which would be the literal meaning of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-a-gender-also-hebrew-gender-questions/347401/35 "2006-03-09T07:48:57Z")
> [@Tevildo](#): > > Well, we can’t _prove_ that it’s a euphemism in Genesis 19 - it _might_ be meant literally, although I personally think it’s unlikely. > > Do you agree that it’s a euphemism for sex in Genesis 4:25, quoted above? And let’s look at the whole passage from Judges: Judges 19:22-26. > > “Know” is both what the “sons of Belial” wanted to do to the man, and what they actually did to the concubine. No, they didn’t _know_ the concubine. They **abused** , **humbled** and **[did] what seemeth good** to the concubine. It is not _possible_ that the vile thing they wanted to do to the man was perhaps beat and rob and harass him, but they decided gang raping his concubine was fun enough and still a good way of teaching the man a lesson (that being “don’t come here”)? (In either case, for the way he treats his concubine afterwards the Levite in that section is quite possibly the most despicable character in the entire OT not to be specifically stated as in league with the devil, and that’s saying something.) ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-a-gender-also-hebrew-gender-questions/347401/36 "2006-03-09T08:19:22Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > No, they didn’t “know” the concubine. They **abused** , **humbled** and **[did] what seemeth good** to the concubine. Well, strictly speaking, the old man (the host) invited them to “humble” and “do what seemed good to them” to both the concubine and the Levite’s daughter, and what they actually did was “know” and “abuse” the concubine. > [@](#): > > It is not _possible_ that the vile thing they wanted to do to the man was perhaps beat and rob and harass him, but they decided gang raping his concubine was fun enough and still a good way of teaching the man a lesson (that being “don’t come here”)? I assume you mean “Is it not possible?”? Yes, I agree. Nothing explicit is said - I think we can be confident that violence is involved, and I would still suggest that it may have had a sexual component, but I accept that we can’t say for certain that the mob’s initial motivation was sexual. > [@](#): > > In either case, for the way he treats his concubine afterwards the Levite in that section is quite possibly the most despicable character in the entire OT not to be specifically stated as in league with the devil, and that’s saying something. Very true. The Levite’s description of the incident in Judges 20:5 isn’t exactly a model of accuracy: > [@](#): > > And the men of Gibeah rose against me, and beset the house round about upon me by night, and thought to have **slain** me: and my concubine have they **forced** , that she is dead. However, I accept it’s valid to make the point that he claims to have been in fear of his life, rather than his - virtue, for want of a better word. Reading between the lines, it looks as though the whole thing was designed to provoke a war between Israel and Gibeah; nobody really comes out of it with much credit, but human nature is unfortunately like that. On the primary issue, I’ll retreat to Genesis 4:25 and 1 Samuel 1:19. I don’t think there’s a way of interpreting “know” as anything other than a euphemism for sex in those passages. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-a-gender-also-hebrew-gender-questions/347401/37 "2006-03-09T11:40:47Z")
[And from Matthew 1:](http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=4380943) [24] Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: [25] And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. –which you’ll struggle to parse as “did not make the acquaintance of”. ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-a-gender-also-hebrew-gender-questions/347401/38 "2006-03-09T11:50:43Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > [And from Matthew 1:](http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=4380943) > [24] Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: > [25] And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. > > –which you’ll struggle to parse as “did not make the acquaintance of”. Indeed. 🙂 And, just to clarify, “know” is also a literal translation of the Greek ἐγίνωσκεν in this passage. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-a-gender-also-hebrew-gender-questions/347401/39 "2006-03-09T12:58:30Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > I don’t think that follows at all–since God clearly has a gender in the Bible–male. Except that when reading the OT in the original Hebrew some of the names of G-d are female, and some are plural. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-a-gender-also-hebrew-gender-questions/347401/40 "2006-03-09T13:06:34Z")
> [@Tevildo](#): > > Indeed. 🙂 And, just to clarify, “know” is also a literal translation of the Greek ἐγίνωσκεν in this passage. Dude. When do we inaugurate the mutual admiration society? 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-a-gender-also-hebrew-gender-questions/347401.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-a-gender-also-hebrew-gender-questions/347401.md?page=3)