# Do angels have free will? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 30, 2003, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785 "2003-07-30T00:30:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/41 "2012-07-09T08:17:46Z")
> [@Shiva418](#): > > Information can also be found at [www.hermetic.com](http://www.hermetic.com) However, if you wish to conduct these types of experements yourself, I would suggest consulting the practices descriped in _Liber O_. ([Liber O vel Manus et Sagittae sub figurâ VI - Technical Libers of Thelema - The Libri of Aleister Crowley - Hermetic Library](http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/libers/libero.html)) > > After practicing many of the above methods, my opinion is that angelic beings are bound by their nature and do not have fre will. They are partial beings (as opposed to a “god” who is a complete macrocosm, or a human who is a complete microcosm). Of couse, you may argue that I’m crazy, but don’t knock my opinions (or the opinions the the folks listed above) unless you’ve tried out the methods. Do _not_ copy a Crowley procedure recommended by a stranger on the internet. Crowley was a sociopathic troll, and some of his “magick” rituals are really designed to blow up in people’s faces. Or so the rumour has it. I don’t know Shiva418, and can’t trust that that poster is not cut from the same cloth. ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/42 "2012-07-09T08:36:08Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Yup, that’s what I meant. > > There was more to it. Why is it that, in heaven, everyone’s happy? If free will still exists to people who get into heaven, wouldn’t it make sense that some of them would get bored, or annoyed, or angry, and unhappy? Unless there was no free will in heaven and you’re just perpetually happy. But if its ok to get rid of free will in heaven, why not make everyone on earth happy right now? Well, pretty much the entire “logic” of Christian mythology falls apart under close scrutiny. One of my favorite logic-busting questions is why would an omniscient god who is also presumably benevolent create a being/soul/human that is destined to go to hell and spend eternity in torment (he would, being omniscient, know that this would happen). I understand that in Christian mythology, you are no longer actually human once you enter heaven, so all the things that made you happy (including the love of other humans) no longer matter to you; you just sit there (or float there) and love God. You don’t get bored because boredom is a human emotion. “Why not make everyone on earth happy right now?” is a question that is unanswerable by Believers, as is “If God cares so much that we believe in him, why doesn’t he write ‘Believe in me or ELSE’ in ten-thousand-foot-high flaming letters in the sky?” ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/43 "2012-07-09T08:38:48Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Do _not_ copy a Crowley procedure recommended by a stranger on the internet. Crowley was a sociopathic troll, and some of his “magick” rituals are really designed to blow up in people’s faces. Or so the rumour has it. I don’t know Shiva418, and can’t trust that that poster is not cut from the same cloth. I realize we are basically discussing voodoo here to start with, but…really? ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/44 "2012-07-09T09:32:46Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Do _not_ copy a Crowley procedure recommended by a stranger on the internet. Crowley was a sociopathic troll, and some of his “magick” rituals are really designed to blow up in people’s faces. Or so the rumour has it. I don’t know Shiva418, and can’t trust that that poster is not cut from the same cloth. Yeah, the last time I followed anything by Crowley it ended up with a really sweet girl emotionally breaking and donating her life-granting blood to some centuries old rogue leader of the cult. Too obscure? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/45 "2012-07-09T11:05:19Z")
> [@grude](#): > > God is like stop banging the human women, angels don’t listen. That interpretation I don’t believe to be accurate, men were declared ‘only evil all the time’ not the nephilum nor the sons of god (angels), and God Himself does this very thing, impregnate Mary. Sex, children and hybrids (son of God/son of man) appears very much part of God’s plan along with sex will sometimes happen (David and Bathsheba - God only acuses David of killing Uriah, not adultery), and it a testament to God’s power to have people come together and also to make women so beautiful. My above cite of Jude shows angels ‘abandoning their proper dwelling’ which seems to be a free will decision. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/46 "2012-07-09T11:15:27Z")
> [@](#): > > I understand that in Christian mythology, you are no longer actually human once you enter heaven, so all the things that made you happy (including the love of other humans) no longer matter to you; you just sit there (or float there) and love God. You don’t get bored because boredom is a human emotion. The life of angels disagree with this, we (well they) have missions to attend to, stuff to do, and a better universe filled with life to meet and explore, not much time to sit and float, but yeah some time, but floating is not what it’s about. And it is the angels love for us that have them go on these missions, so we will have love for others, as Jesus stated 1 Love God, 2 Love others and also states that His words will never pass away. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/47 "2012-07-09T11:16:31Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I’ve always wondered why, if angels had free wills, god didn’t simply make more angels What makes you think more angels are not being born all the time? ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/48 "2012-07-09T11:41:20Z")
I’ll give some of this a shot. > [@greenslime1951](#): > > Well, pretty much the entire “logic” of Christian mythology falls apart under close scrutiny. One of my favorite logic-busting questions is why would an omniscient god who is also presumably benevolent create a being/soul/human that is destined to go to hell and spend eternity in torment (he would, being omniscient, know that this would happen). Not everyone _is._ Hell is for people who’ve voluntarily chosen separation from God. > [@](#): > > I understand that in Christian mythology, you are no longer actually human once you enter heaven, so all the things that made you happy (including the love of other humans) no longer matter to you; you just sit there (or float there) and love God. You don’t get bored because boredom is a human emotion. I don’t think people stop loving other people in heaven. And I’m sure heaven has more things to do than just sit there. > [@](#): > > “Why not make everyone on earth happy right now?” is a question that is unanswerable by Believers Free will. > [@](#): > > as is “If God cares so much that we believe in him, why doesn’t he write ‘Believe in me or ELSE’ in ten-thousand-foot-high flaming letters in the sky?” Heck, that didn’t work too well with the Hebrews (not that He literally did what you said in your example), and they had actual tangible proof of His existence. They turned to idolatry a _ton_ of times. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/49 "2012-07-09T11:46:52Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > What makes you think more angels are not being born all the time? What makes you think angels are born at all? Nothing at all in the Bible about it. ---
**Author:** ![BunnyTVS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BunnyTVS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BunnyTVS)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/50 "2012-07-09T12:09:43Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > Not everyone _is._ Hell is for people who’ve voluntarily chosen separation from God. His point was that if God is omniscient, then he knows from the outset whether a person will belive/worship him. It follows that if God allows that person to be born, he is knowingly sentencing him to eternal damnation. A further extrapolation is that God will also know what it would take to change that person into a believer. If God fails to take that action then he must **want** said person to go to hell. Also remember from the story of the plagues of Egypt God can, _and does_, directly change the way people feel and think. Therefore he can, and does, remove our free will when it suits him. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/51 "2012-07-09T12:11:01Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Do _not_ copy a Crowley procedure recommended by a stranger on the internet. Crowley was a sociopathic troll, and some of his “magick” rituals are really designed to blow up in people’s faces. Or so the rumour has it. I don’t know Shiva418, and can’t trust that that poster is not cut from the same cloth. Wait…whut? The link Shiva had has some silly looking dude(?) in a dress doing some kind of dumb '80s post-disco dance number, and really retarded chants of the “Yod. Nun. Resh. Yod. Virgo, Isis, Mighty Mother.” variety. [“El retardo supremo, if you want my opinion.”](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/41/do-you-know-a-guaranteed-love-charm-recipe) Unless by “blow up in your face”, you mean "a paparazzi will take a picture of you doing this and sell it to The Smoking Gun and America’s Funniest Home Videos, thus preventing you from ever getting that Supreme Court appointment you’ve been after, I don’t see how this could possibly hurt you. Lest anyone think that “blow up in people’s faces” means that Crowley was telling you to pour Clorox and ammonia into the toilet at the same time. Or…were there “rituals” where Crowley told you “Hey, yeah, to summon the angel of stubborn stains that just won’t come out, go ahead and microwave that stainless steel toaster”? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/52 "2012-07-09T12:11:42Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > Hell is for people who’ve voluntarily chosen separation from God. And for those never believed in the first place, and for those who picked wrong in the great “Guess Which God” game. > [@ekedolphin](#): > > I don’t think people stop loving other people in heaven. And I’m sure heaven has more things to do than just sit there. Is there anything at all in the Bible about this? > [@ekedolphin](#): > > Free will. Does this mean that there is no free will in heaven? > [@ekedolphin](#): > > Heck, that didn’t work too well with the Hebrews (not that He literally did what you said in your example), and they had actual tangible proof of His existence. They turned to idolatry a _ton_ of times. So if sporadic evidence doesn’t work, the solution is to give no direct evidence at all? How’s that working out so far? ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/53 "2012-07-09T12:13:19Z")
> [@BunnyTVS](#): > > Therefore he can, and does, remove our free will when it suits him. I can kill people if I have to, like self defense, that doesn’t mean I LIKE to do it or want to do it more than absolutely needed. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/54 "2012-07-09T12:16:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What makes you think angels are born at all? Nothing at all in the Bible about it. Earth and heaven mirror each other, the nephilum (capability of reproduction), God’s plan and love for family as the basic unit, angels being referred to as stars which are ‘born’, and quite frankly God loving sex. Plus meeting a baby angel sort of helps 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/55 "2012-07-09T12:21:28Z")
> [@grude](#): > > I can kill people if I have to, like self defense, that doesn’t mean I LIKE to do it or want to do it more than absolutely needed. Bad analogy. When you sees all, knows all and does all, you don’t have to do anything you don’t want to do-you just get it right the first time. If God has those characteristics and problems _still_ pop up that need to be corrected, then he is deliberately causing those problems. I’m not a psychiatrist, but there’s probably a name for those who deliberately cause problems then step in to “solve” them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/56 "2012-07-09T12:23:45Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Earth and heaven mirror each other, the nephilum (capability of reproduction), God’s plan and love for family as the basic unit, angels being referred to as stars which are ‘born’, and quite frankly God loving sex. > > Plus meeting a baby angel sort of helps 😉 Leaving your imaginary encounters out of it, I asked what was in the _Bible_ about angels being born. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/57 "2012-07-09T12:30:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Leaving your imaginary encounters out of it, I think we are finished here. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/58 "2012-07-09T12:44:42Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I think we are finished here. We could compare your personal description of what a “baby angel” looks like to a description in the Bible…although there being no baby angels in the Bible, would a Cherubim do? The book of Ezekiel says that [Quote=Ezekiel 1:5] Each of them had four faces and four wings, with straight feet with a sole like the sole of a calf’s foot, and “hands of a man” under their wings. Each had four faces: The face of a man, the face of a lion on the right side, the face of an ox on the left side, and the face of an eagle. [/quote] ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/59 "2012-07-09T12:48:26Z")
**Czarcasm** you have not only insulted me but also many who have had angelic encounters as well as many who believe in world faiths such as Christianity and Islam. I don’t care to address you any further in this. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/60 "2012-07-09T12:58:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Leaving your imaginary encounters out of it, I asked what was in the _Bible_ about angels being born. Born could also mean made or created, that was the meaning I assumed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785.md?page=4)