# Do angels have free will? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 30, 2003, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785 "2003-07-30T00:30:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/61 "2012-07-09T13:01:43Z")
> [@kimera](#): > > I didn’t want to hijack [this thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=200802) > > I, being raised a Catholic, was always told that angels had no free will. However, a quick search on google reveals the argument to have a lot of supports on either side. From what I can determine, the concept of angels having or not having free will was not mentioned in the bible, but was first argued by Thomas Aquinas. > > Also, if angels did have free will, and they knew God in his full capacity, doesn’t their rejection of God really say something about him? > > It’s been years since I was in Catholic schooling, so I turn to the boards on these matters. > > So do angels have free will or not? Think of it this way They are like Gods military. When not on duty, they have free will. When on duty, they follow orders. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/62 "2012-07-09T13:02:19Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > **Czarcasm** you have not only insulted me but also many who have had angelic encounters as well as many who believe in world faiths such as Christianity and Islam. I don’t care to address you any further in this. This thread is based on the myths and beliefs of the Abrahamic religions. Adding in stuff you believe that isn’t backed up by those religions isn’t germane, is it? If I start arguing about angels in Tolken’s works or the rules of angels in my favorite anime series, I’d be off topic, right? Your beliefs aren’t accepted within the circles of Abrahamic religions, so what possible relevance can they have? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/63 "2012-07-09T13:02:33Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Born could also mean made or created, that was the meaning I assumed. I didn’t want to assume anything, seeing as how another poster described seeing a “baby angel”. I don’t think the Bible says anything about how they were created or made either, btw. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/64 "2012-07-09T13:05:07Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > Think of it this way > They are like Gods military. When not on duty, they have free will. When on duty, they follow orders. From where in the Bible do you get this? What of the Seraphim, the six-winged flaming beings whose job is the fly around the Throne of God for eternity singing “Holy, Holy, Holy”? ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/65 "2012-07-09T13:10:37Z")
I freely admit this may be something not backed up by theology of any sort, but I kind of like the idea of angels as getting one free-will choice in their entire existence, and knowing before they make the choice that it’s a big deal. Once they’ve made their choice, they are bound to it for eternity. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/66 "2012-07-09T14:04:33Z")
> [@chrisk](#): > > I freely admit this may be something not backed up by theology of any sort, but I kind of like the idea of angels as getting one free-will choice in their entire existence, and knowing before they make the choice that it’s a big deal. Once they’ve made their choice, they are bound to it for eternity. Is this something a forgiving God would arrange? ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/67 "2012-07-09T14:12:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > From where in the Bible do you get this? What of the Seraphim, the six-winged flaming beings whose job is the fly around the Throne of God for eternity singing “Holy, Holy, Holy”? What of the Marching Bands in the military ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/68 "2012-07-09T14:13:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is this something a forgiving God would arrange? God will also punish. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/69 "2012-07-09T14:16:37Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > What of the Marching Bands in the military I can point out in the Regulations where and when _they_ can have breaks. Can you point out in the Bible where the Seraphim get authorized breaks from their job? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/70 "2012-07-09T14:19:11Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > God will also punish. _One_ chance to get it right, then punishment? Once again, it looks like God making a defective product on purpose. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/71 "2012-07-09T14:22:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > _One_ chance to get it right, then punishment? Once again, it looks like God making a defective product on purpose. You have discovered a well known logical inconsistency in Christianity, I don’t know what answer you are looking for. Why did god do ANYTHING? It already knows how everything will turn out. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/72 "2012-07-09T14:49:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > _One_ chance to get it right, then punishment? Once again, it looks like God making a defective product on purpose. Why cant an Angel ask for forgiveness? ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/73 "2012-07-09T14:52:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I can point out in the Regulations where and when _they_ can have breaks. Can you point out in the Bible where the Seraphim get authorized breaks from their job? So because the Bible doesnt list breaks, they dont get any? LOL Desperate are we? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/74 "2012-07-09T14:55:52Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > So because the Bible doesnt list breaks, they dont get any? > > LOL > > Desperate are we? Just comparing what people believe about angels to what is actually said about them in the Bible. Is it wrong to ask where people get their suppositions about angels from, if they don’t seem to come from the bible itself? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/75 "2012-07-09T14:56:56Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > Why cant an Angel ask for forgiveness? I was commenting on post #65. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/76 "2012-07-09T15:01:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I was commenting on post #65. I dont agree with that post either. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/77 "2012-07-09T15:03:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Just comparing what people believe about angels to what is actually said about them in the Bible. Is it wrong to ask where people get their suppositions about angels from, if they don’t seem to come from the bible itself? The Bible does not give every detail of information. It is a Guide. Your response is treating it like a Policy Manual. Apples to Oranges. Peoples "opinions"are just that. ---
**Author:** ![JMH125](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee59a6/32.png) [@JMH125](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JMH125)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/78 "2012-07-09T15:04:33Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > In Judaic theology, angels do not have free will. And Satan (or, more accurately, “the Satan”) is not an evil being, merely an angel whose service to G-d consists of temptime mortals to sin. There was no “fall” such as it seems Christians believe in. I am inclined to believe this as well. “Evil” is only a natural and expected opposite of “Good” so that we can have contrast and thus they come into existence. Most likely, Christianity took ancient religions and “demonized” them and took Dionysus and made him into a horned devil of evil. I’m not sure how exactly the 1/3 legion from heaven story evolved. Or who wrote that part of the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/79 "2012-07-09T15:10:53Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > The Bible does not give every detail of information. It is a Guide. Your response is treating it like a Policy Manual. > > Apples to Oranges. > > Peoples "opinions"are just that. I’m just asking what those opinions are based on, if anything other than blind supposition. There is talk of angels taking breaks for instance, but reading the Bible leads me to believe that different types of angels were created(or always existed) to fulfill certain jobs, like the aforementioned Seraphim. If their sole purpose, the very reason they exist, is to fly around the throne of God singing “Holy, Holy, Holy” for eternity, and they don’t tire, for what reason would they need a break? ---
**Author:** ![JMH125](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee59a6/32.png) [@JMH125](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JMH125)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/80 "2012-07-09T15:11:26Z")
> [@grude](#): > > I can’t believe I’m the first one to remember this being an atheist, but even going off the bible it appears angels do have free will. > > Genesis 6:1-4 > > God is like stop banging the human women, angels don’t listen. And that could lead to the whole idea that “angels” are just aliens from another dimension/star system, and have physical bodies and desires. Or can at least manifest themselves in the denser physical realm. 🙂 Anyway, i’m not atheist but i’m skeptical of what much of the Bible says. I don’t believe it is preordained Word of God and every letter is gospel truth. Far, far from it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785.md?page=5)