# Do angels have free will? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 30, 2003, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785 "2003-07-30T00:30:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/81 "2012-07-09T16:02:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m just asking what those opinions are based on, if anything other than blind supposition. There is talk of angels taking breaks for instance, but reading the Bible leads me to believe that different types of angels were created(or always existed) to fulfill certain jobs, like the aforementioned Seraphim. If their sole purpose, the very reason they exist, is to fly around the throne of God singing “Holy, Holy, Holy” for eternity, and they don’t tire, for what reason would they need a break? The Bible is a guide Book of us, not angels. Angels are mentioned, but the Book isnt about them, so I wouldnt expect it to give a cultural, social analysis. If I write a book on Germany, I might mention they allied with Italy, but that doesnt mean my book will have a complete background on Italians. So any perception of “Angels” will be supposition. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/82 "2012-07-09T16:05:58Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > The Bible is a guide Book of us, not angels. Angels are mentioned, but the Book isnt about them, so I wouldnt expect it to give a cultural, social analysis. If I write a book on Germany, I might mention they allied with Italy, but that doesnt mean my book will have a complete background on Italians. > > So any perception of “Angels” will be supposition. If it doesn’t really matter what you say in this thread about angels, or even if what you say has any backing from the very book that describes them, why bother debating the subject at all? ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/83 "2012-07-09T16:09:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > why bother debating the subject at all? Entertainment? That being said, I find it humorous that you keep posting in a thread where you ask this question. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/84 "2012-07-09T16:15:50Z")
Well, either we’re talking about the angels described in the Bible, or we’re not. Since the OP was raised Catholic, I don’t think it’s wrong to assume that the former is what is under discussion. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/85 "2012-07-09T16:21:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Well, either we’re talking about the angels described in the Bible, or we’re not. Since the OP was raised Catholic, I don’t think it’s wrong to assume that the former is what is under discussion. The Bible mentions Angels, it isnt about Angels. Your previous post to me seemed to indicate that if it isnt mentioned in the Bible, it isnt so. I merely stated that the Bible isnt a compete work on Angels, and your logic is flawed to expect that. Thus, the info in the Bible isnt all the info on Angels. Again, I find it humorous that you responded to something we shouldnt even be debating. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/86 "2012-07-09T16:27:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Well, either we’re talking about the angels described in the Bible, or we’re not. Since the OP was raised Catholic, I don’t think it’s wrong to assume that the former is what is under discussion. Really? I thought we were here for you to air the same things atheists post in every religiously based thread. Religions are not self-consistent and people have done bad things in their name. That is hardly news and you bringing into this thread seems like threadshitting to me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/87 "2012-07-09T16:28:37Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > Again, I find it humorous that you responded to something we shouldnt even be debating. If by “angel” you mean any and everything that might spring from imagination then there is nothing to really discuss, let along debate about. I prefer to think that the OP was referring to the entities described in varying detail in the Bible, but if I’m off-track here I’m sure she/he will correct me. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/88 "2012-07-09T16:30:52Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Really? I thought we were here for you to air the same things atheists post in every religiously based thread. Religions are not self-consistent and people have done bad things in their name. That is hardly news and you bringing into this thread seems like threadshitting to me. So what you saying is, while youre broad brushing Atheists, you dont like how they broad brush Christians? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/89 "2012-07-09T16:31:07Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Really? I thought we were here for you to air the same things atheists post in every religiously based thread. Religions are not self-consistent and people have done bad things in their name. That is hardly news and you bringing into this thread seems like threadshitting to me. 1. I have no idea what you are on about. 2. If you think I’m threadshitting, you know what do do. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/90 "2012-07-09T16:40:52Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Really? I thought we were here for you to air the same things atheists post in every religiously based thread. Religions are not self-consistent and people have done bad things in their name. That is hardly news and you bringing into this thread seems like threadshitting to me. Please don’t junior moderate. And if you have a personal problem with another poster, take it to The BBQ Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/91 "2012-07-09T16:43:29Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Please don’t junior moderate. And if you have a personal problem with another poster, take it to The BBQ Pit. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/92 "2012-07-09T16:44:01Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > **Czarcasm** you have not only insulted me but also many who have had angelic encounters as well as many who believe in world faiths such as Christianity and Islam. I have never had an “angelic encounter” but I am a believer in a world faith such as you mention, and I am not insulted by Czarcasm’s questioning. He is just asking where people are getting the basis for the beliefs they are supporting in this thread. That should not be a problem, unless you are expressing your own hooey, and fine if that is what you are doing; but anyone questioning the basis of verifiable suppositions will not insult a person who can explain the origin of their belief from some scripture, or verse in a holy book, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/93 "2012-07-09T16:48:20Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > So what you saying is, while youre broad brushing Atheists, you dont like how they broad brush Christians? I am an atheist and I am interested in a discussion of angels having free will. This interests me in exactly the same way that Tolkein’s work is endlessly discussed by others. I’ve heard all the criticisms of religion before and actually agree with it. Do we need to go over it all for the umpteenth time like nobody here heard it before? ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/94 "2012-07-09T17:48:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If by “angel” you mean any and everything that might spring from imagination then there is nothing to really discuss, let along debate about. I prefer to think that the OP was referring to the entities described in varying detail in the Bible, but if I’m off-track here I’m sure she/he will correct me. Either your being purposefully obtuse, or youre double talking through failure. My emphasis below > [@Czarcasm](#): > > What makes you think angels are born at all? **Nothing at all in the Bible about it**. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > And for those never believed in the first place, and for those who picked wrong in the great “Guess Which God” game. \*\*Is there anything at all in the Bible about this?\*\*Does this mean that there is no free will in heaven?So if sporadic evidence doesn’t work, the solution is to give no direct evidence at all? How’s that working out so far? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Leaving your imaginary encounters out of it, **I asked what was in the _Bible_ about angels being born.** > [@Czarcasm](#): > > We could compare your personal description of what a “baby angel” looks\*\* like to a description in the Bible…although there being no baby angels in the Bible\*\*, would a Cherubim do? The book of Ezekiel says that > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I didn’t want to assume anything, seeing as how another poster described seeing a “baby angel”. **I don’t think the Bible says anything about how they were created or made either, btw.** > [@Czarcasm](#): > > \*\*From where in the Bible do you get this? \*\* What of the Seraphim, the six-winged flaming beings whose job is the fly around the Throne of God for eternity singing “Holy, Holy, Holy”? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I can point out in the Regulations where and when _they_ can have breaks. **Can you point out in the Bible where the Seraphim get authorized breaks from their job?** > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m just asking what those opinions are based on, if anything other than blind supposition. There is talk of angels taking breaks for instance, \*\*but reading the Bible leads me to believe that different types of angels were created(or always existed) to fulfill certain jobs, \*\*like the aforementioned Seraphim. If their sole purpose, the very reason they exist, is to fly around the throne of God singing “Holy, Holy, Holy” for eternity, and they don’t tire, for what reason would they need a break? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > \*\*Well, either we’re talking about the angels described in the Bible, or we’re not. \*\* Since the OP was raised Catholic, I don’t think it’s wrong to assume that the former is what is under discussion. Again, the whole basis of your post is, if it isnt in the bible, it isnt so. I said > [@dngnb8](#): > > **The Bible does not give every detail of information. It is a Guide. Your response is treating it like a Policy Manual.** > [@dngnb8](#): > > \*\*The Bible mentions Angels, it isnt about Angels. \*\*Your previous post to me seemed to indicate that if it isnt mentioned in the Bible, it isnt so. > > I merely stated that the Bible isnt a compete work on Angels, and your logic is flawed to expect that. Thus, the info in the Bible isnt all the info on Angels. > > Again, I find it humorous that you responded to something we shouldnt even be debating. You then blithered about not responding. The basis of everything you posted about Angels is, if it isnt in the Bible, it aint so. Once again, and please forgive me if this is posted in a way you cannot comprehend The Bible doesnt tell you everything about an Angels life. It is a book for us, not a book on Angels. If your position is, “Well, it aint in the Bible” youre failing. Our perceptions can only be made from what little is said. Anything further is supposition. Absence of comment in the Bible is not a determination for lack of existence. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/95 "2012-07-09T17:49:23Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > What makes you think more angels are not being born all the time? I should add, for clarification, why not make more angels and no humans. What’s the point of humans if we serve the same function as angels, but we’re more weak and suffer more easily? ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/96 "2012-07-09T17:50:21Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > I am an atheist and I am interested in a discussion of angels having free will. This interests me in exactly the same way that Tolkein’s work is endlessly discussed by others. I’ve heard all the criticisms of religion before and actually agree with it. Do we need to go over it all for the umpteenth time like nobody here heard it before? I was only saying, you complained of broad brushing while broad brushing. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/97 "2012-07-09T18:00:44Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I should add, for clarification, why not make more angels and no humans. What’s the point of humans if we serve the same function as angels, but we’re more weak and suffer more easily? God is fascinated by freewill, human fragility and sin is preferable to mostly obedient yes men. I think Islamic writings go into more detail on angels and humans: > **[Iblis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil_(Islam))** > > Iblis (Arabic: إِبْلِيسْ, romanized: Iblīs), alternatively known as Eblīs, also known as Shaitan, is the leader of the devils (shayāṭīn) in Islam. According to the Quran, Iblis was thrown out of heaven after refusing to prostrate himself before Adam. He is often compared to the Christian Satan, since both figures were cast out of heaven according to their respective religious narratives. In his role as the master of cosmic illusion in Sufi cosmology, he functions in ways similar to the Budd Isl... > [@](#): > > According to basic Islamic teachings, God created three intelligent species: angels, jinns, and humans, of which the latter two have been granted free will to choose between good and evil.[3][4] > > Iblis was a jinn and a devoted servant of God, according to the Qur’an, which Muslims take as the authoritative word of God.[5][6][7] However, according to other non-Quranic sources he was a “disobedient angel”.[2][8] This view is also backed by a different interpertation of the same verse that commanded the whole order of the angels, whom Iblis was part of until he broken away from the qualities of the order, to prostrate to Adam who was not part of the angelic order.[9][10] There are other verses that may be considered as a reinforcement to this view in that humans are referred to as “bashar” (men) while other than bashar are referred to as “malaaikah” (angels) which is consistent to the previous verse.[11][12] > > The angels do not have free will and cannot sin because they were not granted the freedom by God to disobey. When God created Adam (see Islamic view of Adam), he commanded all the angels and Iblis (whose rank allowed him to be considered equal to that of an angel) to prostrate to Adam as was termed “the Best of Creation”. All the angels did so. The jinn Iblis refused to obey, and was brought in to a state of rebellion against God.[13] For this God cast him out of the Garden, and intended to punish him. Iblis begged God to delay the punishment until the Last Day (the Day of Judgment): this God granted, as he is Most Merciful (ar-Raḥīm).[14] ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/98 "2012-07-09T18:09:34Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > The Bible doesnt tell you everything about an Angels life. It is a book for us, not a book on Angels. If your position is, “Well, it aint in the Bible” youre failing. Our perceptions can only be made from what little is said. Anything further is supposition. Absence of comment in the Bible is not a determination for lack of existence. And you had to quote every post of mine to make your point? Look-if what is being discussed are angels, which are entities mentioned in the Bible, and you want to bring up things about angels that _aren’t_ in the Bible, the _least_ you could do is mention where your extrabiblical information comes from, dontcha think? ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/99 "2012-07-09T18:21:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And you had to quote every post of mine to make your point? As I said, you were either being purposefully obtuse or you just werent getting it. > [@](#): > > Look-if what is being discussed are angels, which are entities mentioned in the Bible, and you want to bring up things about angels that _aren’t_ in the Bible, the _least_ you could do is mention where your extrabiblical information comes from, dontcha think? You crack me up. If it isnt in a text, it must not be so. Actually, I already addressed this response earlier. It was when you said we shouldnt be debating this. Funny, youre still debating what we shouldnt be debating, notice that? In short, people develop their own beliefs through supposition, what little they have read in the Bible, and some people report personal experience. Unfortunately, we have never caught an angel, interviewed it or dissected one, so that is all we really have. That being said, again, because it aint in text, doesnt mean they dont get breaks, or have free will, or even have singular responsibilities. You ask why I quoted all your posts, then you respond with the same type of response. Pure Entertainment ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/100 "2012-07-09T18:35:21Z")
> [@grude](#): > > God is fascinated by freewill, human fragility and sin is preferable to mostly obedient yes men. > > I think Islamic writings go into more detail on angels and humans: > > [Iblis - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil_(Islam)) As far as I can tell, the Bible doesn’t have anything equivalent to “jinn”. Are they described as being physically different from angels? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785.md?page=6)