# Do angels have free will? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 30, 2003, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785 "2003-07-30T00:30:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![oreally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ab992/32.png) [@oreally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oreally)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/121 "2012-07-16T22:04:10Z")
> [@kbe232](#): > > To proffer an answer to the original question “Do angels have free will” doesn’t necessarily presume a belief in angels anymore than a discussion as to whether or not Hobbits or Greek demigods had free will. It is obviously possible to speculate on angels having free will based on biblical myth, a personal belief in angels, some concept of free will itself or a multitude of other reasons without angels having to have actual existence. Well said and excellent point. > [@Trinopus](#): > > So, yes, angels have free will. They also are not permitted to exercise it. You mean like Satan? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/122 "2012-07-16T23:00:22Z")
Oops; once the great rebellion was suppressed, I didn’t think the fallen were called “angels” any longer. What is the prevailing terminology? Is Satan an angel? I thought he had another name. (Heck, he’s got hundreds…) Of course, the next question is, can Satan exercise his free will? Is he imprisoned, or is he an active agent. Some theologians say one thing…and others say other things. I kind of like Dante’s vision: Satan is trapped, helpless, able to do little more than curse and gnaw. Judas, Cassius, and Brutus are his eternal chaw of baccy. Leaving out the fine details, this vision leaves human sin to human agency. The devil didn’t make you do it; your own sinful nature did. But others say the devil is right out there, in the world, in San Francisco, say, having sex with gay men and everything. Really active, the author of our misfortunes. I don’t admire this idea as much, as it undermines our own free will. It allows us to put the blame on him, rather than accept it as the burden of our own responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![kbe232](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5e925/32.png) [@kbe232](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kbe232)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/123 "2012-07-17T14:24:25Z")
The Sufi poet/mystic Rumi said, “If thou hast not seen the devil, look at thine own self”. I take that to indicate Rumi thought what we consider as evil can and does originate in each of us. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/124 "2012-07-17T21:47:23Z")
I’m with Rumi on that. Separating “evil” from ourselves and having it embodied in a separate entity like Satan might be a useful metaphor when discussing evil in a broad, philosophical sense, but taking it literally, like some people do, denies reality (though it does conveniently absolve us of blame when we do wrong). And at the risk of going off the rails here, regardless of whether or not angels have free will, why is there a need for angels in the first place? Are we not completely comfortable with a single, monolithic God taking care of everything and still need lesser beings like angels and saints to get the job done? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/125 "2012-07-17T22:27:28Z")
Angels are like “exchange particles” in quantum physics. God says, “Let there be light,” and a thousand angels spring to attention and glow. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/126 "2012-07-18T00:27:18Z")
> [@HPL](#): > > The problem is that the image of rebelling angels as such comes from Milton’s_Paradise Lost_ and thus not canonical. I never realized that, so how did Satan come about according to the canon? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/127 "2012-07-18T00:35:22Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Jinn are made of fire, angels of light, and humans of clay. I think Jinn are supposed to be generally larger and darker skinned than humans and angels too, but don’t quote me on that last one. Now that you mention it, angels look nothing like humans. Ezekiel 1:16 Ezekiel 10:14 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/128 "2012-07-18T01:10:43Z")
> [@HPL](#): > > The problem is that the image of rebelling angels as such comes from Milton’s_Paradise Lost_ and thus not canonical. > [@Sitnam](#): > > I never realized that, so how did Satan come about according to the canon? You might want to check out post #110: > [@tomndebb](#): > > It may be related to the misunderstanding, repeated several times in this thread, that only things in “the Bible” can be examined when looking for the sources of Christian belief. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/129 "2012-07-18T01:37:34Z")
Your post #110 cleared up a lot of misconceptions(I hope). The only objection I ever had was to information about angels that had no scholarly cites whatsoever. If the topic was hobbits, anything from the works of Tolkien would be acceptable, as probably would any reference works on mythology he used to formulate his ideas. What I wouldn’t find acceptable would be fan fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/130 "2012-07-18T03:32:43Z")
Lovely quip about fan fiction… But… Okay, Milton and Dante are right out. And the Book of Daniel, really, is also “fan fiction.” But… Paul’s letters? The Revelation? The Gospels? How do you draw the line? The Nicene Council did draw a line, but it’s a bit arbitrary… (We need a big theological push to get Dante’s Divine Comedy recognized as “Revealed Truth.” But Milton still doesn’t make the cut.) (re Tolkien, what about stuff by Christopher Tolkien? Is he “canonical” or not? Or, to put it another way, is the son of the Prophet the heir to the Prophecy? Didn’t Sunni and Shia get into a wrangle over that?) ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/131 "2012-07-18T03:50:39Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > (re Tolkien, what about stuff by Christopher Tolkien? Is he “canonical” or not? Or, to put it another way, is the son of the Prophet the heir to the Prophecy? Didn’t Sunni and Shia get into a wrangle over that?) Christopher Tolkien is much more an analogue of a Biblical scholar (of the modern textual criticism variety) or a museum curator. He hasn’t written anything (to my knowledge) in the legendarium himself. He’s only edited and presented his father’s writings, including the writings that didn’t make the final cut, to the public. That’s as opposed to Brian Herbert, who metaphorically set up a circus tent on top of his father’s grave, with lights powered by Frank’s spinning corpse. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/132 "2012-07-18T04:00:17Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The Nicene Council did draw a line, but it’s a bit arbitrary… Not really, (on both counts). The Council of Nicaea made few statements regarding Scripture, none of them addressing a canon. The Councils that wrestled with defining a canon occurred over fifty years later, including the Council of Rome, (382), and the Third Council of Carthage, (397). As to the “bit arbitrary” claim: it may be argued that the church, collectively, was arbitrary in its selection of a canon, but the councils tended to simply confirm the selection process that had already begun among the various churches 150 years earlier, not really adding or eliminating any books that were not already in use. There are references to lists of accepted books dating back to the Muratorian Canon from around 170 and those promoted by Origen, around 200, that are very close to the lists that currently comprise the Christian canon. ---
**Author:** ![gvozd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gvozd/32/7301_2.png) [@gvozd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gvozd)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/133 "2012-07-18T10:29:28Z")
Their ancient and precious law strictly forbids them from interfering in mortal world. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/134 "2012-07-18T11:00:45Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Now that you mention it, angels look nothing like humans. > > Ezekiel 1:16 > Ezekiel 10:14 Well, depending on which angels you’re talking about. If I recall correctly their descriptions range from “roughly humanoid” to “Lovecraft’s nightmares.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/135 "2012-07-18T11:54:24Z")
> [@gvozd](#): > > Their ancient and precious law strictly forbids them from interfering in mortal world. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/136 "2012-07-18T20:18:58Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Angels are like “exchange particles” in quantum physics. God says, “Let there be light,” and a thousand angels spring to attention and glow. That settles the question of free will, then. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![kbe232](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5e925/32.png) [@kbe232](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kbe232)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/137 "2012-07-21T00:35:43Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > That settles the question of free will, then. 😉 The original question now has a rider: do particles and/or angels have free will? ---
**Author:** ![kbe232](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5e925/32.png) [@kbe232](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kbe232)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/138 "2012-07-21T00:43:02Z")
I love the way Raymond M. Smullyan deals with the topic of human free will: [http://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/godTaoist.html](http://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/godTaoist.html) This is a very entertaining read, somewhat on topic, and well worth the time. ---
**Author:** ![Montague](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecb155/32.png) [@Montague](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Montague)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/139 "2012-07-21T08:17:16Z")
Here’s the bind that the Catholic Church was in, and why they have to say that angels have free will: If satan rebelled, but did not have free will, then god was the author of the rebellion. And that blows the whole omnibenevolent thing right out of the water. It’s a game changer. So that meant that the angels had to have free will. But god, being omniscient, knew it was coming and did nothing about it, which means that god is not truly omnibenevolent but only indifferent… if you believe in all that sort of thing anyway. ---
**Author:** ![kbe232](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5e925/32.png) [@kbe232](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kbe232)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785/140 "2012-07-21T13:44:54Z")
This thread subject also brings to mind: **’Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.’** –Sir Walter Scott, Marmion, Canto vi. Stanza 17 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-angels-have-free-will/191785.md?page=6)