# Do animals feel shame? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 8, 2010, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-animals-feel-shame/524114 "2010-01-08T02:00:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-animals-feel-shame/524114/41 "2010-01-10T21:06:39Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Most folks would say she loved it there, and loved her human family. > > Then one day this guy comes along, puts her in a crate, drives her a hundred miles away from the only home she’s ever known and suddenly she’s dealing with a whole new reality. It took her about a week to adjust. Now she “loves” me. > > Would that be true of any human who loves you, even in the slightest? I think you could do that to a human child easily, provided you took very good care of the child. Also, don’t teenagers basically do this at college? They get kicked out of high school (one family) and end up going to strange place where they encounter other people, many of whom they bond strongly to. Dogs are pack animals. If the new pack is better than the old, of course they are going to go with it! Personally, I dislike it when people ask “Do animals x?” It forgets that we are animals too and that there are sooo many different species. FWIW, I think the capuchins I study feel shame. In order to feel shame, I imagine an individual in a species needs to have an identity of self. That is, an understanding that an action they did has anger/annoyed another individual and they themselves are guilty of said action. I don’t believe that dogs have this capacity based on what I understand about their reasoning skills. An example of this in my primates would be a low-ranking male acting all tough and bravado when the high-ranking males are away. The low-ranking male will sometimes, upon finding himself alone, puff himself up, act all aggressive around the ladies, and generally be a nuisance. Then, if he thinks he’s going to be caught in the act, he’ll immediately knock it off and slink off to the edge of the group to avoid being ‘punished’. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-animals-feel-shame/524114/42 "2010-01-10T23:35:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Do animals feel shame? No, because they are not Catholics. Next question. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-animals-feel-shame/524114/43 "2010-01-11T00:47:26Z")
I believe that Ambrose Bierce once said that _Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to._ ---
**Author:** ![kittenblue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ba8739/32.png) [@kittenblue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kittenblue)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-animals-feel-shame/524114/44 "2010-01-11T05:51:15Z")
My cat Moose certainly felt humiliation, if not shame. For a stray cat, he was remarkably well-behaved and we never had to yell at him or correct him at all…until the Chrismas tree came in the house. Then both he and our girl cat, Muffin, tried to climb it. We had a squirt gun handy for this situation, and squirted Muffin…she just sat there getting wet, giving us a disdainful look. But Moose, when we squirted him?He hightailed it into the bedroom, where he hid under the bed for two solid days! Two! He wouldn’t come out for anything! And when he did come out, he refused to go anywhere near the treeagain! ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-animals-feel-shame/524114/45 "2010-01-11T13:49:44Z")
> [@Mojo\_Pin](#): > > Yes animals have the “same fundamental structure” as we do, for the most part. Their brains are composed of neurons, connected by synapses, and chains of firing neurons function in similar ways, with the similar chemicals. But it’s not the building blocks that create self awareness, it’s a particular kind of structuring, developed extensively only recently. > > What’s interesting is that all emotions (and their corresponding outward signals) would serve their purpose equally well even without actually _feeling_ them. One could have all the physiological reactions of fear, and the heightened “awareness”, adrenaline, etc. would aid escape, and facial expressions could communicate information without either party experiencing anything. > > We see all the external signs of emotion in animals, and naturally feel that they must feel what we do when we show those signs. But consider the following: > > 1. self awareness requires some still unknown arrangement of neural connections and networks > 2. presumably, this is quite complicated and costly to create and maintain I don’t see how it’s anything more than speculation that animals don’t have self awareness. When closely observed, they give every indication of self awareness and emotion that the average human being does, except for language. And a human being _telling_ me he’s self-aware might be lying, or deluded. It’s _possible_ nature has set up two entirely different systems for emotion and expression – one for humans, requiring self-awareness, and one for animals, which closely mimics it without requiring self awareness. But parsimony and the lesson Copernicus taught us (that imagining we are unique in the universe is usually an illusion) argue against this dual setup. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-animals-feel-shame/524114/46 "2010-01-11T17:11:41Z")
> [@kimera](#): > > I think you could do that to a human child easily, provided you took very good care of the child. Also, don’t teenagers basically do this at college? They get kicked out of high school (one family) and end up going to strange place where they encounter other people, many of whom they bond strongly to. Dogs are pack animals. If the new pack is better than the old, of course they are going to go with it! A child would forget his home after a week? College students stop loving their families when they go to college? > [@](#): > > Personally, I dislike it when people ask “Do animals x?” It forgets that we are animals too and that there are sooo many different species. FWIW, I think the capuchins I study feel shame. In order to feel shame, I imagine an individual in a species needs to have an identity of self. That is, an understanding that an action they did has anger/annoyed another individual and they themselves are guilty of said action. In order to feel shame you need to understand the difference between right and wrong, which in turn requires a moral code. Just because I angered someone doesn’t mean I’m ashamed of it, nor does the fact that I behave submissively or attempt to make amends. I might just want to defuse the anger. If the capuchin understood shame he would know he had done wrong without having to be told. [QUOTE=Sailboat] But parsimony and the lesson Copernicus taught us (that imagining we are unique in the universe is usually an illusion) argue against this dual setup. [/QUOTE] How did Copernicus teach us that? ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-animals-feel-shame/524114/47 "2010-01-12T00:14:22Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > How did Copernicus teach us that? [More recently, the principle is generalised to the relativistic concept that humans are not privileged observers of the universe.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernican_principle) . ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-animals-feel-shame/524114/48 "2010-01-12T00:27:47Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Then one day this guy comes along, puts her in a crate, drives her a hundred miles away from the only home she’s ever known and suddenly she’s dealing with a whole new reality. It took her about a week to adjust. Now she “loves” me. > > Would that be true of any human who loves you, even in the slightest? It it was a kid less than about 5 or 6 YES. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-animals-feel-shame/524114/49 "2010-01-12T00:47:30Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Imagine this scenario. > > I get a puppy or maybe a cat. Everytime they need to go, they get put outside to do their business. They are generally well behaved and rarely if ever get scolding for anything. They have never had an accident in the house. They have learned outside is where you go. They grow up this way. > > Then one day I get home a bit late. I walk in the door. The pet behaves rather oddly from the moment I get home. I do not yet know that the pet couldn’t wait any longer and has done their business in the back bedroom. > > Would that not be something along the lines of an emotional guilt/shame response? > > While I have not personally observed exactly such a scenario, I have seen similiar such things and heard similiar stories from others. Maybe it knows that you’re going to be pissed at it. Which isn’t necessarily to say that it feels guilty/ashamed. Just that it’s trying to be submissive because it knows you’re going to get pissed and punish it. I’d separate guilt/shame from fear of punishment because you can feel guilt even when no one knows you’ve done anything wrong. It’s more internalized. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-animals-feel-shame/524114/50 "2010-01-12T03:46:56Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Maybe it knows that you’re going to be pissed at it. Which isn’t necessarily to say that it feels guilty/ashamed. Just that it’s trying to be submissive because it knows you’re going to get pissed and punish it. I’d separate guilt/shame from fear of punishment because you can feel guilt even when no one knows you’ve done anything wrong. It’s more internalized. And humans are totally different? Either its shame or something like shame/guilt or its sophisticated reasoning skills. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-animals-feel-shame/524114.md?page=2)