# Do anti-gay marriage activists object to transexual marriage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 23, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149 "2009-04-23T21:17:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/21 "2009-04-24T17:44:33Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > You do realize that the treatment progression for gender dysphoria isn’t “Here’s a ticket to Sweden, go get your weewee lopped,” right? There’s an extensive regimen of treatment that progresses from therapy through living full time as your ideal gender through actual reassignment surgery. The depth of the dysphoria is explored in meticulous detail so that the proper treatment can be determined. It’s not like people are scheduling reassignment as outpatient express or anything. Yes, we do know that. That does not actually change a man or woman’s sex. That’s built-in, genetic more or less, and even post-hoc hormone treatments won’t actually change the underlying issue. It’s not possible to be a “man in a woman’s body” or vice versa. We are what we are; male and female humans. We can no more change the former than the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/22 "2009-04-24T17:59:44Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > It’s not possible to be a “man in a woman’s body” or vice versa. So you simply deny that transgendered people exist? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/23 "2009-04-24T18:15:24Z")
> [@Dag\_Otto](#): > > So you simply deny that transgendered people exist? No, but surgical or chemical alteration of the body does not change the man or woman to the other. Their perceived or desired identity is simply not something they can have, any more than I can be a 13th century Italian noble or the fox living in my backyard. I don’t even make such a specific distinction between men and women anyhow. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/24 "2009-04-24T18:26:51Z")
Well, I guess the OP has been answered… ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/25 "2009-04-24T18:33:14Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Well, I guess the OP has been answered… Surprise, surprise… ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/26 "2009-04-24T18:42:50Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I don’t even make such a specific distinction between men and women anyhow. That seems to be in contradiction to everything else you’ve written in this thread, which hinges on a very sharp distiction between the sexes. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/27 "2009-04-24T19:14:37Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > Inspired by this disturbing, disturbing video: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NRn4TWyUm0&feature=channel\_page](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NRn4TWyUm0&feature=channel_page) > > As in the thread title. Do they acknowledge a sex change as valid, and its considered to be “opposite marriage”, or is it just gay marriage to a eunuch? I believe the official Catholic line is that they will not bless ANY marriage where the participants are known to be incapable of bearing children. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/28 "2009-04-24T19:17:54Z")
There have been cases were a man has a sex change and stays married to his wife. In many cases they change their sex on their birth certificate to Female. So is that marriage now considered to be a gay marriage and thus invalid? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/29 "2009-04-24T20:06:02Z")
> [@Jane\_Elliot](#): > > I have a relative who has Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. She is in her early 30’s, genetically a male, but looks female. She’s never had any surgery, lives as a female, and is only sexually interested in males. > > According to anti-SSM people, should she: > > 1. Never marry? > 2. Marry a man (because she looks female)? > 3. Marry a woman (because she’s genetically male)? From what I’ve seen of the anti-SSM people I’ve spoken with and read statements from, the answer typically is one of the following: a) Never marry (in fact, never have any physical relations with any other human being). Optionally, pray to Jesus to somehow have her genetics change to be “right”. b) Go off somewhere and die, because we don’t want anyone to question our ignorance of medical science. Which of course is not a surprise. Transgendered folks are one of the last minorities that it’s generally OK to mock and hate, even being subjected to a not insignificant amount of distancing and even hatred from the lesbian and gay communities. ---
**Author:** ![Giltathriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b38774/32.png) [@Giltathriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giltathriel)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/30 "2009-04-24T20:17:42Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > I believe the official Catholic line is that they will not bless ANY marriage where the participants are known to be incapable of bearing children. This isn’t true, infertile heterosexual couples are considered acceptable. Actually there are multiple infertile couples (read ‘barren women’) in the Bible, many of whom are miraculously blessed with (male) children later. I think the woman with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome gets classified as a ‘eunuch by nature’ and would be told not to marry at all. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/31 "2009-04-24T20:21:18Z")
There was some Catholic bishop somewhere that said a guy in a wheelchair could not get married since he could not have kids. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/32 "2009-04-24T20:46:23Z")
> [@Giltathriel](#): > > This isn’t true [This article](http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/news/Steve-Ilona-s-love-conquered-paralysis-Catholic-Church/article-754708-detail/article.html) seems to contradict you here (as **Bijou Drains** points out its a case of disabled man wanting to marry): > [@](#): > > But Steve’s disability caused problems for the pair three years later when the Catholic Church refused to marry them, saying it would be impossible for them to consummate the marriage. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/33 "2009-04-24T21:16:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That seems to be in contradiction to everything else you’ve written in this thread, which hinges on a very sharp distiction between the sexes. A sharp distinction in biological function, from which I take the purpose and fulfillment of marriage. If other people want to hang out or even live together, I’m not going to bust in the door. While there are differences in cognition between men and women… these are not huge. They are tendencies, not any clear difference. In my eyes, the modern world (while worshipping the body) errs in viewing people as naked mentalities or even isolated brains. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/34 "2009-04-24T21:22:22Z")
> [@Iamametalrobot](#): > > Is it really hateful to think that current medical techniques are insufficient to change one’s gender? Or that maybe people who want to have their perfectly functional genitals sliced up need mental help, not surgical? And just curious, what do you think is the minimum need to effect a sex change? I would say nearly complete body replacement (say grow a brainless clone of the opposite gender, and transplant brain) would be needed for me to consider a person’s gender changed. What mental help would that be? Psychologists and Psychiatrists might not hold the opinion of gender for such people that you think they do. I am sure because I just asked the psychologist who sleeps next to me yesterday wrt another transgender thread. Probably will not make your case to really head down that road, so let’s just stop at the fork here, OK? Because unless you understand the positions of mental health professionals first hand, it might not me a good idea to relay on those same positions to support yours. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/35 "2009-04-24T21:24:19Z")
> [@Iamametalrobot](#): > > Of course there is extensive treatment and lots of therapy before any gender “altering” surgery is done. The psychiatrist who end up recommending the surgery wouldn’t get nearly as much money if they sent said patients to surgery and hormones right away. Yeah much cheaper if they go to church camp and have their gayness fixed by Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/36 "2009-04-24T21:26:08Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > No, but surgical or chemical alteration of the body does not change the man or woman to the other. Their perceived or desired identity is simply not something they can have, any more than I can be a 13th century Italian noble or the fox living in my backyard. I don’t even make such a specific distinction between men and women anyhow. And you define “man” and “women” how again? ---
**Author:** ![Giltathriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b38774/32.png) [@Giltathriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giltathriel)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/37 "2009-04-24T21:41:48Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > [This article](http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/news/Steve-Ilona-s-love-conquered-paralysis-Catholic-Church/article-754708-detail/article.html) seems to contradict you here (as **Bijou Drains** points out its a case of disabled man wanting to marry): I think the key is here: “Steve’s disability made it **impossible to consummate the marriage** and have children”. Infertility isn’t a problem so much as the inability to have heterosexual sex. The best cite I can find at short notice is from the [Catechism of the Catholic Church](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2379.htm) “The Gospel shows that physical sterility is not an absolute evil. Spouses who still suffer from infertility after exhausting legitimate medical procedures should unite themselves with the Lord’s Cross, the source of all spiritual fecundity. They can give expression to their generosity by adopting abandoned children or performing demanding services for others.” ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/38 "2009-04-24T21:52:50Z")
> [@Giltathriel](#): > > I think the key is here: “Steve’s disability made it **impossible to consummate the marriage** and have children”. Infertility isn’t a problem so much as the inability to have heterosexual sex. Even if that is the case, it still applies to the OP. And personally I can’t understanding the theological reasons for this distinction (miraculous cures for “cripples” occur in the bible, just as much as miraculous cures “barren women”). > [@Giltathriel](#): > > The best cite I can find at short notice is from the [Catechism of the Catholic Church](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2379.htm) > “The Gospel shows that physical sterility is not an absolute evil. Spouses who still suffer from infertility after exhausting legitimate medical procedures should unite themselves with the Lord’s Cross, the source of all spiritual fecundity. They can give expression to their generosity by adopting abandoned children or performing demanding services for others.” My understanding was that while its perfectly ok (according to Catholic doctrine), if a couple realize after they are married that they are infertile, it is NOT ok to go into your marriage knowing you cannot bear children. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/39 "2009-04-24T22:03:14Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > My understanding was that while its perfectly ok (according to Catholic doctrine), if a couple realize after they are married that they are infertile, it is NOT ok to go into your marriage knowing you cannot bear children. That is somewhat supported by the line a few items back from the one you quoted (not unambiguous, but seems to draw the line between DISCOVERING you are sterile after marriage and going into knowing you are sterile): > [@](#): > > Couples who \*\*discover \*\*that they are sterile suffer greatly ---
**Author:** ![Giltathriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b38774/32.png) [@Giltathriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giltathriel)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/40 "2009-04-24T22:07:03Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > My understanding was that while its perfectly ok (according to Catholic doctrine), if a couple realize after they are married that they are infertile, it is NOT ok to go into your marriage knowing you cannot bear children. Ah, you might be right about that. They didn’t exactly cover the finer points of sexuality in my Sunday School classes. As to the OP - the official Catholic position is a lot like **smiling bandit** ’s, that one’s sex is innate and cannot be changed by surgery or homones. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149.md?page=3)