# Do anti-gay marriage activists object to transexual marriage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 23, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149 "2009-04-23T21:17:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/41 "2009-04-24T22:39:24Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Yes, we do know that. That does not actually change a man or woman’s sex. That’s built-in, genetic more or less, and even post-hoc hormone treatments won’t actually change the underlying issue. It’s not possible to be a “man in a woman’s body” or vice versa. We are what we are; male and female humans. We can no more change the former than the latter. So you’re saying sex is determined by chromosomes? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/42 "2009-04-24T23:35:16Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Even if that is the case, it still applies to the OP. And personally I can’t understanding the theological reasons for this distinction (miraculous cures for “cripples” occur in the bible, just as much as miraculous cures “barren women”). > My understanding was that while its perfectly ok (according to Catholic doctrine), if a couple realize after they are married that they are infertile, it is NOT ok to go into your marriage knowing you cannot bear children. Are you stating that the church says that those who are infertile are NOT supposed to marry? If so, I’d like a cite for that-that would mean that senior citizens-(post-menopausal women) would be forbidden from marrying. I’ve NEVER heard anything like that. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/43 "2009-04-25T06:50:58Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Are you stating that the church says that those who are infertile are NOT supposed to marry? If so, I’d like a cite for that-that would mean that senior citizens-(post-menopausal women) would be forbidden from marrying. I’ve NEVER heard anything like that. > > :dubious: That is indeed my understanding of it. Though it is possible that I misunderstood and **Giltathriel** is right, and that people who are not able to consumate their marriage are not supposed to marry. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/44 "2009-04-25T13:29:04Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > From what I’ve seen of the anti-SSM people I’ve spoken with and read statements from, the answer typically is one of the following: > > a) Never marry (in fact, never have any physical relations with any other human being). Optionally, pray to Jesus to somehow have her genetics change to be “right”. > b) Go off somewhere and die, because we don’t want anyone to question our ignorance of medical science. > > Which of course is not a surprise. Transgendered folks are one of the last minorities that it’s generally OK to mock and hate, even being subjected to a not insignificant amount of distancing and even hatred from the lesbian and gay communities. Really? I’d like, if you could, to see any sort of something even remotely resembling a distant relative of a cite for that. Man, that SDSAB badge means very little if you’re not willing to see real evidence that might question your ignorance of other people’s ideas (right or wrong as they may be) Myself being a evil bigoted anti-SSM guy and knowing and conspiring with a plethora of similar rights-denying monsters I can tell you almost 100% would say “He’s a guy, if he wants to marry he should find a girl. If he needs help, we’ll help”. And I tell you, my fellow co-monsters are almost all conservatice catholics … it’s like the HOF unsensitive bigotry. Sexually-speaking, the only impediment for Catholics to marry is the total inability to perform sexual intercourse. Impotence renders a non-consumated marriage liable to annullment (Once it’s consumated, no annullment of course). * * * Marriage is denied if there is a clear imposibility of consumating marriage. A non-consumated marriage can be annulled, but it is not an obligation. Sterility is not a problem. It is impossible for any “rulebook” to have rules for every possible situation. In the case of the “guy” with the hormone problem a medical diagnosis could determine what ocurse of action. * * * If changing one’s sex (or “gender”) can be done so -relatively- simply, can I also change my race? Can I become black or Asian? OR “is it only genetic” a good answer in this case? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/45 "2009-04-25T16:47:13Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Really? I’d like, if you could, to see any sort of something even remotely resembling a distant relative of a cite for that. > Man, that SDSAB badge means very little if you’re not willing to see real evidence that might question your ignorance of other people’s ideas (right or wrong as they may be) A “cite” for my personal experience of what I’ve directly heard, read in occasional news, or seen on TV? I didn’t say it was the result of a study, survey, or peer-reviewed journal. You’d almost be funny if you weren’t the sort of…person…who thinks little of denying me and people like me the basic social human right of marriage. And cut the “SDSAB Badge” thing out, it makes you look silly and ignorant, especially when it has nothing to do with my anecdotal account. Finally, you really are ignorant of the facts, given your half-baked response on the AIM issue (which, since your attention span doesn’t seem very good, is what I was responding on). “a medical diagnosis could determine what ocurse[sic] of action.”? Good grief, you’re not even trying to try. There’s already _been_ a medical diagnosis in that case, and one common course of action is have the XY person live as female with estrogen replacement. [http://facstaff.l3.drake.edu/abwisniewski/papers/19.pdf](http://facstaff.l3.drake.edu/abwisniewski/papers/19.pdf) So now do they get to marry a male? Or would that make your invisible pink unicorn in the sky all angry and butthurt? I know the real world outside of church is scary and complicated (especially in the case of the intersexed, which you seem unaware of), but do try to keep up. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/46 "2009-04-25T19:10:09Z")
Oooh, sorry, don’t cry…like “personal experience” actually flies here. Your reading skills are even worse than mine, I super-qualified my request so it had a bit more weight that “I say so”. It takes a lot to make me look sillier than I am, but sorry if I hurt your feelings. I’m sure that AIM has specific treatment, but i was going for the general answer. You know, like medical treatment should fit the patient? Or is that concept too difficult? Because, this may be a surprise, every person is different and treatment may be different in each case. Since I don’t know the particulars of the case, I didn’t comment on particulars. I’ll continue making fun of your SDSAB badge as much as I want when you flunk basic science. INVISIBLE PINK UNICORN RULES!!! ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/47 "2009-04-25T19:29:45Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Oooh, sorry, don’t cry [QUOTE=General Questions forum rules] We don’t tolerate political, religious, professional or personal jabs or insults. [/QUOTE] Kindly cut it out, ok? **Gfactor** General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/48 "2009-04-25T19:46:46Z")
If one examines the hypothalamus (after death, of course) by slicing it open and “unrolling it” one will find the following: Heterosexual male: hypothalamus is speckled with grainy black specks. Homosexual male: same. Heterosexual female: hypothalamus is clear; no grainy black specks. Transgendered MTF: same. There is biological evidence to prove that this isn’t just an imaginary hypothetical difference in biology. _The sexual center of the brain is visibly, obviously different._ I can dig up the photographs online somewhere if you insist. It would be absolute lunacy to ignore the facts and to simply pretend that all men must be men, because they look like men on the outside. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/49 "2009-04-25T22:04:53Z")
> [@Gfactor](#): > > Kindly cut it out, ok? > > **Gfactor** > General Questions Moderator Will do Can I expect a similar warning for \*\*Una Persson \*\*regarding the “\*Or would that make your invisible pink unicorn in the sky all angry and butthurt?” \*comment? Insulting a guy’s deity (false as it may be) seems like a religious insult. I’ll comply. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/50 "2009-04-25T22:17:45Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > If one examines the hypothalamus (after death, of course) by slicing it open and “unrolling it” one will find the following: > > Heterosexual male: hypothalamus is speckled with grainy black specks. > Homosexual male: same. > > Heterosexual female: hypothalamus is clear; no grainy black specks. > Transgendered MTF: same. > > There is biological evidence to prove that this isn’t just an imaginary hypothetical difference in biology. _The sexual center of the brain is visibly, obviously different._ I can dig up the photographs online somewhere if you insist. It would be absolute lunacy to ignore the facts and to simply pretend that all men must be men, because they look like men on the outside. Completely agreed, although it is not completely clear how innate this is and how much other things (environment, development) may influence it. But, completely agreed that many (most) cases there is an obvious biological component. The question is should we treat it? If we could get it back to “normal” (please notice the quotation marks) should we? Should we offer it? Does it matter how biological it is? What if the guy has the “wrong” type of hypothalamus? But, again, agreed on the biological component. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/51 "2009-04-25T22:32:52Z")
What’s “normal” and why should it be considered somehow superior to the “not-normal”? We do “treat it” now…by psychological therapy, hormone therapy and sexual reassignment surgery. How do you propose we “treat it”, aside from that? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/52 "2009-04-25T22:45:22Z")
And even when considering “normal”, that doesn’t solve the problem. Which normality are you talking about - after all, being male or being female is the norm. The issue is which part is “wrong” and needs to be normalised. Should the body be treated as correct, and the mind wrong? Or the mind correct, and the body wrong? “Getting it back to normal” could mean either approach. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/53 "2009-04-25T22:55:11Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Will do > > * * * > > I’ll comply. Thanks. > [@](#): > > Can I expect a similar warning for \*\*Una Persson \*\*regarding the “\*Or would that make your invisible pink unicorn in the sky all angry and butthurt?” \*comment? > Insulting a guy’s deity (false as it may be) seems like a religious insult. I’ve issued no warnings, just a moderator note asking you to cut it out. I actually didn’t see that comment, but I think Una knows better than to continue that sort of thing, now that you’ve made your feelings clear. If we can all just dial the snark level down to maybe 60 or so, I can finish writing my staff report. Once again, no warnings issued. **Gfactor** General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Pullet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Pullet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pullet)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/54 "2009-04-26T09:07:36Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Sexually-speaking, the only impediment for Catholics to marry is the total inability to perform sexual intercourse. Impotence renders a non-consumated marriage liable to annullment (Once it’s consumated, no annullment of course). > > * * * > > Marriage is denied if there is a clear imposibility of consumating marriage. > A non-consumated marriage can be annulled, but it is not an obligation. > Sterility is not a problem. > > It is impossible for any “rulebook” to have rules for every possible situation. In the case of the “guy” with the hormone problem a medical diagnosis could determine what ocurse of action. > > * * * Side question: Does the church include the various penetrating acts as sex? Blowjobs, finger banging and the like? If so, then wouldn’t a fingerbang be sufficient to consummate a marriage? If not, then chaos, right? So yes, they are penetrating acts. Then where does the list of penetrating acts stop? Does one side of the penetrating/penetrated have to be genitalia? I find the possibility of this conversation occurring between frustrated guys in robes highly amusing. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149/55 "2009-04-26T21:42:12Z")
> [@Pullet](#): > > Side question: Does the church include the various penetrating acts as sex? Blowjobs, finger banging and the like? If so, then wouldn’t a fingerbang be sufficient to consummate a marriage? If not, then chaos, right? So yes, they are penetrating acts. Then where does the list of penetrating acts stop? Does one side of the penetrating/penetrated have to be genitalia? > > I find the possibility of this conversation occurring between frustrated guys in robes highly amusing. In this context it means the penis penetrating the vagina and ejaculating inside of it. Even more, only acts after the wedding count. “Frustrated” as in most people in most jobs? …ooooooh, it was a joke about celibacy…man, so original, the next beer is on me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-gay-marriage-activists-object-to-transexual-marriage/494149.md?page=2)