# Do Anti-War movements ever end American wars? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 29, 2007, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-war-movements-ever-end-american-wars/405906 "2007-05-29T13:43:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-war-movements-ever-end-american-wars/405906/1 "2007-05-29T13:43:36Z")
I read online this morning that Cindy Sheehan was giving up her fight as an anti-war activist. This got me to thinking about something I had considered a while back: do anti-war protests ever work? I’m not asking whether they are appropriate or “patriotic.” I’m askingwhether there is a direct connection between the movement of the antiwar protesters and the resulting decline in public support for a war/ In the Vietnam era, was the turnaround in public opinion tied to Abby Hoffman et.al’s protests or was it an independently formed opinion based on the facts on the ground? I would be willing to bet that Walter Cronkite’s editorial had more to do with a change in public opinion than the efforts of the entire peace movement. But did Cronkite form his opinion (or the American public) because the peace movement influenced the national debate and made people pay attention to the horrors and failings of the war? I guess the overall question is, what effect does the peace movement have on American public opinion? My gut tells me their impact is minimal. When the movements begin, they are typically from the political extreme and unable to move the mainstream. As a war effort declines (Vietnam and Iraq) then the newsmedia reports more on negative details (as there are more to report) and the general public comes to the same consensus but not as a result of the efforts of the peace movement. I think the story may be framed by the protests (“a record number of protesters…”), but the opinion is formed independent of the example and efforts of the protesters. Anyone able to make the case that the peace movement is an effective vehicle for change in policy and opinion? Edit: to add American to the title. I feel certain European efforts have been successful. ---
**Author:** ![Trotsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@Trotsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trotsky)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-war-movements-ever-end-american-wars/405906/2 "2007-05-29T13:45:56Z")
The anti-war movement can certainly help lose battles (Vietnam during the cold war) but not the war (the cold war itself). We’re facing losing the Iraq battle in the WOT (really the war on jihad) in the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Trotsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@Trotsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trotsky)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-war-movements-ever-end-american-wars/405906/3 "2007-05-29T13:47:00Z")
Oh, you edited the title while I was writing. Um, what european efforts exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-war-movements-ever-end-american-wars/405906/4 "2007-05-29T13:55:01Z")
[QUOTE=Trotsky] The anti-war movement can certainly help lose battles (Vietnam during the cold war) but not the war (the cold war itself). We’re facing losing the Iraq battle in the WOT (really the war on jihad) in the same way. [/QUOTE] If one thinks only in terms of “winning and losing,” then both the conflict in Vietnam and the one in Iraq were lost the day they were launched. Both were misguided adventures based on falsified reports that caused hundreds of thousands of senseless deaths and resulted in the destruction of American credibility the world over. Anti-war protests had/have almost nothing to do with the futility of either war. In both cases, egomaniacal, imperialist American presidents led the country deeply into quagmires of stupidity. That was why we “lost” in Vietnam and why we will “lose” in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-war-movements-ever-end-american-wars/405906/5 "2007-05-29T13:55:19Z")
[QUOTE=Trotsky] We’re facing losing the Iraq battle in the WOT (really the war on jihad) in the same way. [/QUOTE] Explain. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-war-movements-ever-end-american-wars/405906/6 "2007-05-29T13:57:04Z")
[QUOTE=Trotsky] The anti-war movement can certainly help lose battles (Vietnam during the cold war) but not the war (the cold war itself). We’re facing losing the Iraq battle in the WOT (really the war on jihad) in the same way. [/QUOTE] Vietnam was effectively unwinnable to begin with, antiwar movement or not. And the war on Iraq isn’t part of the “War of Terror” because there is none. All that rhetoric about terrorism is nothing but an excuse for invading Iraq and other evils. And we lost in Iraq the moment we crossed the border, because the mission was planned and led by fools, poorly defined and impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Trotsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@Trotsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trotsky)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-war-movements-ever-end-american-wars/405906/7 "2007-05-29T13:57:32Z")
[QUOTE=Sunrazor] If one thinks only in terms of “winning and losing,” then both the conflict in Vietnam and the one in Iraq were lost the day they were launched. Both were misguided adventures based on falsified reports that caused hundreds of thousands of senseless deaths and resulted in the destruction of American credibility the world over. Anti-war protests had/have almost nothing to do with the futility of either war. In both cases, egomaniacal, imperialist American presidents led the country deeply into quagmires of stupidity. That was why we “lost” in Vietnam and why we will “lose” in Iraq. [/QUOTE] You quote Lenin very well on the imperialism stuff. Congrats. ---
**Author:** ![Trotsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@Trotsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trotsky)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-war-movements-ever-end-american-wars/405906/8 "2007-05-29T13:59:12Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Vietnam was effectively unwinnable to begin with, antiwar movement or not. And the war on Iraq isn’t part of the “War of Terror” because there is none. All that rhetoric about terrorism is nothing but an excuse for invading Iraq and other evils. And we lost in Iraq the moment we crossed the border, because the mission was planned and led by fools, poorly defined and impossible. [/QUOTE] No, we only will lose Iraq if people like you insist we do. Any war, even the WOT which threatens the very existance of western civilization against jihadism, can be lost by you guys. I hope you’re ready to submit, unless you already have.. ---
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-war-movements-ever-end-american-wars/405906/9 "2007-05-29T14:08:52Z")
[QUOTE=Trotsky] You quote Lenin very well on the imperialism stuff. Congrats. [/QUOTE] And you parrot Limbaugh, Coulter and O’Reilly admirably, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Trotsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@Trotsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trotsky)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-war-movements-ever-end-american-wars/405906/10 "2007-05-29T14:10:36Z")
Thanks, I’m not upset to be in their company. Except O’reilly though, yuck. I’d still like to know what european anti-war message worked. Is he talking about Chamerlain? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-war-movements-ever-end-american-wars/405906/11 "2007-05-29T14:14:07Z")
[QUOTE=Trotsky] I’d still like to know what european anti-war message worked. Is he talking about Chamerlain? [/QUOTE] You do realize it is possible to support some military actions and not others. Or is that overly complex for you? ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-war-movements-ever-end-american-wars/405906/12 "2007-05-29T14:14:17Z")
I’m still interested in the OP, rather than our ironically-named guest’s attempts to muddy the waters. Do organized anti-war movements help end wars, or do they end when the people recognize that they aren’t going well, regardless of the movement? My guess is that movements do contribute to the momentum against the war, although they never quite become the principal cause of their end. ---
**Author:** ![Trotsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@Trotsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trotsky)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-war-movements-ever-end-american-wars/405906/13 "2007-05-29T14:15:58Z")
[QUOTE=Menocchio] I’m still interested in the OP, rather than our ironically-named guest’s attempts to muddy the waters. Do organized anti-war movements help end wars, or do they end when the people recognize that they aren’t going well, regardless of the movement? My guess is that movements do contribute to the momentum against the war, although they never quite become the principal cause of their end. [/QUOTE] Anti-war movements help their countries lose wars at best. They don’t prevent or cause some great truce. QED. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-war-movements-ever-end-american-wars/405906/14 "2007-05-29T14:20:27Z")
[QUOTE=Trotsky] No, we only will lose Iraq if people like you insist we do. [/quote] No, it’s the Iraqi’s who won’t let us win. What I say on the matter won’t change a thing. [QUOTE=Trotsky] Any war, even the WOT which threatens the very existance of western civilization against jihadism, can be lost by you guys. [/quote] :rolleyes: Please. And just how are the mighty jihadists going to topple western civilization ? You really can’t stand to not have the Soviet Union around any more, can you ? No big, world threatening enemy; just a bunch of fanatics in a dead end self defeating religious movement. [QUOTE=Trotsky] I hope you’re ready to submit, unless you already have.. [/QUOTE] The danger to my freedoms, such as they are, are Bush and the Republicans. I’m more afraid of getting killed by a random dog than I am of the terrorists we are supposed to be so scared of. > [@](#): > > Anti-war movements help their countries lose wars at best. They don’t prevent or cause some great truce. They do when they are in the **attacking nation**. That would be us. ---
**Author:** ![Trotsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@Trotsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trotsky)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-war-movements-ever-end-american-wars/405906/15 "2007-05-29T14:24:06Z")
I heard some 80% of the insurgents are from other arab states… Yemen, Kuwait, and Iran. It’s not the iraqis. And yes, belittle the terrorist threat. By all means. People thought the WTC was safe too. You can whistle past the graveyard and imagine that Bush is gonna hurt you more… LOL. You’re the exact kind of kook that Republicans feed off actually. Good job. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-war-movements-ever-end-american-wars/405906/16 "2007-05-29T14:35:03Z")
The First Amendment says the people have the right to peaceably assemble for redress of grievances. So it’s the patriotic American thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-war-movements-ever-end-american-wars/405906/17 "2007-05-29T14:35:36Z")
[QUOTE=Trotsky] I heard some 80% of the insurgents are from other arab states.. Yemen, Kuwait, and Iran. It’s not the iraqis. [/quote] You heard wrong; only a few percent are. The vast majority are Iraqis. [QUOTE=Trotsky] nd yes, belittle the terrorist threat. By all means. People thought the WTC was safe too. You can whistle past the graveyard and imagine that Bush is gonna hurt you more.. LOL. [/quote] Bush is far, far more powerful than Al Qaeda. And he’s killed more people. ---
**Author:** ![JimSox5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5a626/32.png) [@JimSox5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JimSox5)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-war-movements-ever-end-american-wars/405906/18 "2007-05-29T14:37:32Z")
Its been quite a while since we’ve seen the whole “If you don’t support this war you’re losing it for us” logic on this board. Let’s see if maybe this time, we can be convinced and see the error of our ways. [sub]Nope, still think Bush is an idiot and Iraq was misguided in the best scenario of my dream.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-war-movements-ever-end-american-wars/405906/19 "2007-05-29T14:38:50Z")
[QUOTE=Trotsky] Anti-war movements help their countries lose wars at best. They don’t prevent or cause some great truce. QED. [/QUOTE] Assumes facts not in evidence. Ignoring the value judgments of “winning” and “losing”, do organized anti-war movements hasten the end of wars? I’m not completely convinced that they do, and would like to hear serious arguments about this question. ---
**Author:** ![Trotsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@Trotsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trotsky)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-war-movements-ever-end-american-wars/405906/20 "2007-05-29T14:47:02Z")
[QUOTE=JimSox5] Its been quite a while since we’ve seen the whole “If you don’t support this war you’re losing it for us” logic on this board. Let’s see if maybe this time, we can be convinced and see the error of our ways. [sub]Nope, still think Bush is an idiot and Iraq was misguided in the best scenario of my dream.[/sub] [/QUOTE] It’s refreshing to see such openmindness from a liberal. [sub]Nope, same old pro-jihad crap[/sub] [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-anti-war-movements-ever-end-american-wars/405906.md?page=2)