# Do Any Armies Today se The "Skull and Crossbones" Insignia? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 15, 2013, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-armies-today-se-the-skull-and-crossbones-insignia/661053 "2013-06-15T06:42:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-armies-today-se-the-skull-and-crossbones-insignia/661053/1 "2013-06-15T06:42:58Z")
In WWII, the German Waffen SS Division “Totenkopf” ("Death’s Head) used this insignia. It was considered a very elite unit. Do any armies today use it? It looks pretty cool to me. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-armies-today-se-the-skull-and-crossbones-insignia/661053/2 "2013-06-15T09:19:52Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > In WWII, the German Waffen SS Division “Totenkopf” ("Death’s Head) used this insignia. It was considered a very elite unit. > Do any armies today use it? It looks pretty cool to me. MANY MANY in use today eg british submarines eg Estonians in Iraq. I could just copy and paste the wikipedia entry > **[Skull and crossbones (military)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_and_crossbones_%28military%29)** > > Skull and crossbones variations have been used by several military forces. The "Jolly Roger", traditionally used by pirates, has been used by submarines. > The Jolly Roger is the name given to any of various flags flown to identify a ship's crew as pirates. Since the decline of piracy, various military units have used the Jolly Roger, usually in skull-and-crossbones design, as a unit identification insignia or a victory flag to ascribe to themselves the proverbial ferocity and toughness of pirate... ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-armies-today-se-the-skull-and-crossbones-insignia/661053/3 "2013-06-15T10:37:22Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > In WWII, the German Waffen SS Division “Totenkopf” ("Death’s Head) used this insignia. It was considered a very elite unit. Like many traditions, the republican army — not just that unit, but Panzer troops and others — aped aspects of the previous monarchical armies, and this was first used by the Royal Prussian 5th Hussars in the 18th century. Although no doubt used by previous irregulars such as Landsknechts I would privately imagine. Never cared for skulls myself. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-armies-today-se-the-skull-and-crossbones-insignia/661053/4 "2013-06-15T10:56:05Z")
The use of the skull and crossbones in any patch or pin is forbidden in the Israeli military, for obvious reasons. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-armies-today-se-the-skull-and-crossbones-insignia/661053/5 "2013-06-15T12:59:12Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The use of the skull and crossbones in any patch or pin is forbidden in the Israeli military, for obvious reasons. I must admit surprise to hear that as the Deaths Head is something employed by Nazis, but not something that only the Nazis used and indeed it’s still used today. In fact I would wager that most people would think “pirates” when confronted with the Totenkopf rather than Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-armies-today-se-the-skull-and-crossbones-insignia/661053/6 "2013-06-15T13:03:03Z")
The US Navy has long maintained a carrier aircraft unit that uses a skull. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-armies-today-se-the-skull-and-crossbones-insignia/661053/7 "2013-06-15T13:04:47Z")
[US Navy Strike Squadron 103 (VFA-103)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VFA-103) [One of their F18 Super Hornets.](http://media.desura.com/images/groups/1/3/2044/VFA-103.jpg) So if they give out awards for most badass looking aircraft, I’m pretty sure they would be nominated. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-armies-today-se-the-skull-and-crossbones-insignia/661053/8 "2013-06-15T13:04:57Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > [Skull and crossbones (military) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_and_crossbones_%28military%29) Am I the only person bothered by the very poor quality of the skull depictions in many of those? Some of them are downright goofy. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-armies-today-se-the-skull-and-crossbones-insignia/661053/9 "2013-06-15T13:07:50Z")
While we’re on the subject, do any actual pirates still use the Jolly Roger? ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-armies-today-se-the-skull-and-crossbones-insignia/661053/10 "2013-06-15T15:03:25Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > While we’re on the subject, do any actual pirates still use the Jolly Roger? Not that many pirates ever did, outside the West Indies in the early 18th century, presuming the ‘Jolly Roger’ means a Skull and Crossbones — which it doesn’t actually, the ‘Old Roger’ aka the ‘Jolly Roger’ was a skeleton on a black field holding an hourglass. Most pirates in the days of sail would hoist either a plain black or a plain red flag. Each of which had an ascribed meaning in the dim mind of each pirate that didn’t necessarily coincide with what another pirate thought they meant. ---
**Author:** ![Speak\_to\_me\_Maddie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Speak\_to\_me\_Maddie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speak_to_me_Maddie)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-armies-today-se-the-skull-and-crossbones-insignia/661053/11 "2013-06-15T16:00:59Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I must admit surprise to hear that as the Deaths Head is something employed by Nazis, but not something that only the Nazis used and indeed it’s still used today. In fact I would wager that most people would think “pirates” when confronted with the Totenkopf rather than Nazis. Not if you’d lived in an SS run death camp. I think the ban would reflect the idea that the totenkoph was specifically a symbol of the SS, and the SS had a “special” relationship with Jewish civilians that went beyond that of the regular Nazi command. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-armies-today-se-the-skull-and-crossbones-insignia/661053/12 "2013-06-15T17:19:54Z")
In Brazil, the military police special forces [BOPE](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batalh%C3%A3o_de_Opera%C3%A7%C3%B5es_Policiais_Especiais) use a variant of the skull and crossbones. I guess you’d call it a skull and cross pistols. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-armies-today-se-the-skull-and-crossbones-insignia/661053/13 "2013-06-15T17:59:32Z")
> [@Speak\_to\_me\_Maddie](#): > > Not if you’d lived in an SS run death camp. I think the ban would reflect the idea that the totenkoph was specifically a symbol of the SS, and the SS had a “special” relationship with Jewish civilians that went beyond that of the regular Nazi command. I don’t think people appreciate how Israelis see the Third Reich. The Arabs may ne our enemies, but the Nazis are our nemesis. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-armies-today-se-the-skull-and-crossbones-insignia/661053/14 "2013-06-15T18:15:31Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > In Brazil, the military police special forces [BOPE](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batalh%C3%A3o_de_Opera%C3%A7%C3%B5es_Policiais_Especiais) use a variant of the skull and crossbones. I guess you’d call it a skull and cross pistols. Interesting. Unlike armed forces, police (even military police) aren’t supposed to have killing enemies as part of their mission. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-armies-today-se-the-skull-and-crossbones-insignia/661053/15 "2013-06-15T20:57:47Z")
Slight highjack, but is flying the Skull and Crossbones illegal? My uncle sailed on a University of Hawaii expedition into some of the southern Pacific (no idea where exactly) and, for part of the time, they flew the “Brave Black Flag” – until someone told them it was illegal and they could be fined…or worse. Any validity? (Here in San Diego harbor, people occasionally have one flying above their leisure boats, but I kinda doubt that anybody cares.) ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-armies-today-se-the-skull-and-crossbones-insignia/661053/16 "2013-06-15T22:07:19Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Am I the only person bothered by the very poor quality of the skull depictions in many of those? Some of them are downright goofy. No. It was the first thing I thought of looking at that page. It kind of ruins the effect of trying to look scary. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-armies-today-se-the-skull-and-crossbones-insignia/661053/17 "2013-06-16T03:21:00Z")
[On the off chance someone hasn’t seen this Mitchell and Webb skit, enjoy.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEle_DLDg9Y) ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-armies-today-se-the-skull-and-crossbones-insignia/661053/18 "2013-06-16T13:19:17Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Am I the only person bothered by the very poor quality of the skull depictions in many of those? Some of them are downright goofy. To my mind, the First Reconnaissance Battalion should not have included the motto with the emblem. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-armies-today-se-the-skull-and-crossbones-insignia/661053/19 "2013-06-16T13:31:52Z")
I think the quality is so low because most of them are embroidered, not drawn. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-armies-today-se-the-skull-and-crossbones-insignia/661053/20 "2013-06-16T13:56:35Z")
The little-known tradition of a submarine flying a Jolly Roger to indicate successful enemy engagement was started in 1914 by Admiral Sir Max Horton after his E Class submarine HMS E9 sank a German cruiser and a destroyer. It was a cheeky response to a comment made in 1901 by Admiral of the Fleet Sir Arthur Wilson. He summed up the belief of many in the Admiralty at the time when he declared submarines ‘underhand, unfair and damned un-English’ adding that they should be treated as pirates in wartime, and their crews hanged. During the Second World War, as they demonstrated their worth to Britain’s sea defences, it became common for submarines to follow Horton’s lead, and the tradition has continued. HMS Conqueror, the submarine that sank the Argentine cruiser General Belgrano, flew the Jolly Roger when she returned from the Falklands War, and the flag was used in 1991 by HMS Opossum and HMS Otus when they returned from patrols in the Persian Gulf, the only indication that they had perhaps been involved in SAS and SBS reconnaissance operations there. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-armies-today-se-the-skull-and-crossbones-insignia/661053.md?page=2)