# Do any Diebold Defenders Think this is Worth Investigating? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2006, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-diebold-defenders-think-this-is-worth-investigating/341700 "2006-01-26T14:58:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-diebold-defenders-think-this-is-worth-investigating/341700/1 "2006-01-26T14:58:16Z")
[http://www.bbvforums.org/cgi-bin/forums/board-auth.cgi?file=/1954/17305.html](http://www.bbvforums.org/cgi-bin/forums/board-auth.cgi?file=/1954/17305.html) > [@](#): > > Convicted of 23 felonies for computer crimes, Jeffrey Dean was sent to prison for four years. Shortly after his release from incarceration, his company was awarded one of the largest ballot printing contracts in history… > > Key logs from King County Elections show that Jeffrey Dean was given intimate access to the GEMS server (Diebold central tabulating software); internal memos from Diebold refer to an ongoing consulting arrangement with Dean, and document that he had management involvement in the touch-screens, the 1.96 version of the optical scan, the votercard encoder and the Windows CE operating system used in Diebold voting machines. …or is this more tin-foil hattery, on the order of crazy people wondering how exit polls could be so different from results? ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-diebold-defenders-think-this-is-worth-investigating/341700/2 "2006-01-26T15:30:08Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Do any Diebold defendants Think this is Worth Investigating? Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, the only Diebold _defendants_ are in an insider trading case, not a voting fraud prosecution. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-diebold-defenders-think-this-is-worth-investigating/341700/3 "2006-01-26T15:35:18Z")
I didn’t mean literal Diebold defendants. Crud. I meant members of this message board who dismiss any allegations against Diebold as nuttery… I shoulda said “defenders” or “apologists,” I guess. “Apologists” sounds loaded, though. If a **mod** sees this, could you please change the subject line to have the word “Defenders” instead of “Defendants”? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-diebold-defenders-think-this-is-worth-investigating/341700/4 "2006-01-26T16:45:06Z")
No, it’s not worth investigating. The only thing worth investigating is why the vote logs differed from the polls. If there were shenanigans, then a detailed investigation of the vote compared to the polls would show WHERE the votes were changed, WHAT type of equipment was hacked into, and HOW MANY votes were altered. For all states and districts where there was a discrepency, not just “battleground” states, not just where it benefitted Bush, every location treated equally. That is the scientific way of determining the root cause of a data discrepency. Until you get that, all of this speculation is worthless gibbering. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-diebold-defenders-think-this-is-worth-investigating/341700/5 "2006-01-26T18:36:03Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > No, it’s not worth investigating. The only thing worth investigating is why the vote logs differed from the polls. That’d be great. I can imagine several reasons, but so far as I know, no investigation has been allowed. > [@](#): > > If there were shenanigans, then a detailed investigation of the vote compared to the polls would show WHERE the votes were changed, WHAT type of equipment was hacked into, and HOW MANY votes were altered. But, uh, there’s no paper trail on this stuff. How would the information available now be able to tell where votes were changed, what type of equipment, and how many votes were altered? > [@](#): > > For all states and districts where there was a discrepency, not just “battleground” states, not just where it benefitted Bush, every location treated equally. That is the scientific way of determining the root cause of a data discrepency. Until you get that, all of this speculation is worthless gibbering. As I say, that’d be great. That data is either non-existent or suppressed, so far as I know. Do you know what could be done to figure out the cause of the data discrepancy? I don’t understand why investigating the data makes investigating what this convicted felon may or may not have done not worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-diebold-defenders-think-this-is-worth-investigating/341700/6 "2006-01-26T20:34:05Z")
Sorry, but the mere fact that a Diebold subcontractor was a felon is not remotely relevant to the question of whether vote fraud occurred. What does it prove? The OP posts this and then says, “There - you see?” No, I don’t see. What inference am I supposed to draw? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-diebold-defenders-think-this-is-worth-investigating/341700/7 "2006-01-26T20:51:16Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Do any Diebold defendants Think this is Worth Investigating? You could have a videotape of the Diebold board of directors plotting how to rig the next election in mind-numbing detail – complete with Evil Cackling Laughter™ – and the apologists would _still_ insist there’s no reason to investigate. Elections are such _trivial_ things, y’know? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-diebold-defenders-think-this-is-worth-investigating/341700/8 "2006-01-26T21:28:53Z")
What, specifically, are you looking for in terms of an investigation? No evidence of vote fraud has been found as yet, and various left-wing groups have been searching desperately for such evidence. That is an investigation. But perhaps it’s not what is meant when you use the word ‘investigation’. What, SPECIFICALLY, are you looking for? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-diebold-defenders-think-this-is-worth-investigating/341700/9 "2006-01-26T21:31:45Z")
> [@bup](#): > > I don’t understand why investigating the data makes investigating what this convicted felon may or may not have done not worth it. Investigating the data is how you determine if there was a crime in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-diebold-defenders-think-this-is-worth-investigating/341700/10 "2006-01-26T22:05:26Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > You could have a videotape of the Diebold board of directors plotting how to rig the next election in mind-numbing detail – complete with Evil Cackling Laughter™ – and the apologists would _still_ insist there’s no reason to investigate. Elections are such _trivial_ things, y’know? Oh fuck. [Here we go again](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=343131). You guys were impervious to logic and facts last November. Any reason we should expect a different result this time? I just wanna know before I spend a dozen+ hours mired in another spectacularly futile argument. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-diebold-defenders-think-this-is-worth-investigating/341700/11 "2006-01-27T01:27:06Z")
> [@bup](#): > > I didn’t mean literal Diebold defendants. Crud. I meant members of this message board who dismiss any allegations against Diebold as nuttery… > > I shoulda said “defenders” or “apologists,” I guess. “Apologists” sounds loaded, though. > > If a **mod** sees this, could you please change the subject line to have the word “Defenders” instead of “Defendants”? Is done. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-diebold-defenders-think-this-is-worth-investigating/341700/12 "2006-01-27T02:17:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sorry, but the mere fact that a Diebold subcontractor was a felon is not remotely relevant to the question of whether vote fraud occurred. What does it prove? The OP posts this and then says, “There - you see?” > > No, I don’t see. What inference am I supposed to draw? No, and the fact that the president of Deibold promised to deliver Ohio to the Republican Party is also not worthy of investigation. Diebold should never be investigated, no matter HOW suspicious their behavior. And the people who favor voting machines that don’t leave paper trails? PATRIOTS, I tell you, PATRIOTS! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-diebold-defenders-think-this-is-worth-investigating/341700/13 "2006-01-27T13:43:52Z")
More grassy knoll stuff. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-diebold-defenders-think-this-is-worth-investigating/341700/14 "2006-01-27T13:56:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > More grassy knoll stuff. > > Regards, > Shodan Yeah, and no WMDs was “grassy knoll stuff” and the Bush Admin. torturing prisoners was “grassy knoll stuff” and operating a secret “black prison” network in Europe was “grassy knoll stuff” and Choice Point rigging the felon list in Florida was “grassy knoll stuff.” Funny, how all that “grassy knoll stuff” keeps turning out to be completely true where the Bush Admin. is concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-diebold-defenders-think-this-is-worth-investigating/341700/15 "2006-01-28T14:39:41Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Yeah, and no WMDs was “grassy knoll stuff” and the Bush Admin. torturing prisoners was “grassy knoll stuff” and operating a secret “black prison” network in Europe was “grassy knoll stuff” and Choice Point rigging the felon list in Florida was “grassy knoll stuff.” > > Funny, how all that “grassy knoll stuff” keeps turning out to be completely true where the Bush Admin. is concerned. No, “grassy knoll” stuff is the usual paranoid ravings [repeated over and over](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/24/AR2006012401676.html) with no evidence to back it up. You know, like your posts. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-diebold-defenders-think-this-is-worth-investigating/341700/16 "2006-01-28T22:42:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, “grassy knoll” stuff is the usual paranoid ravings [repeated over and over](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/24/AR2006012401676.html) with no evidence to back it up. You know, like your posts. > > Regards, > Shodan Shoday, the very article you cite says: > [@](#): > > In an interim report presented to the Council of Europe, the continent’s official human rights watchdog group, Dick Marty, a Swiss parliamentarian, also accused European governments of either collaborating or looking the other way as U.S. intelligence officers abducted or secretly detained terrorism suspects on European soil. What do you think secretly detaining terrorism suspects on European soil is all about? Do ya think we shipped those poor bastards to Romania for FUN? I’m sorry, ya got no cred here. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-diebold-defenders-think-this-is-worth-investigating/341700/17 "2006-01-30T13:56:51Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Shoday, the very article you cite says: > > > [@](#): > > > > In an interim report presented to the Council of Europe, the continent’s official human rights watchdog group, Dick Marty, a Swiss parliamentarian, also **accused** European governments of either collaborating or looking the other way as U.S. intelligence officers abducted or secretly detained terrorism suspects on European soil. Emphasis added. > [@](#): > > What do you think secretly detaining terrorism suspects on European soil is all about? I think it is all about paranoid ravings repeated over and over, with no evidence to back it up, as I mentioned. > [@](#): > > I’m sorry, ya got no cred here. You say that as if I should be concerned. Regards, Shodan