# Do any of you know what "science" is? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 26, 2009, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298 "2009-07-26T05:10:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/181 "2009-07-28T02:31:43Z")
Well, there’s a chance we can cure schizophrenia. Men being jerks is a feature, not a bug. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/182 "2009-07-28T02:32:20Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Yawn. > > As **Smash** might say: I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: “O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.” And God granted it. Actually, Voltaire said it. Smash just likes to puke quotes and let others make his arguments for him. Someday he’ll have a thought of his very own. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/183 "2009-07-28T02:33:12Z")
Because I’m sure you missed this: Yet again, why are you posting on a message board that you admit you hate? Are you simply shit-stupid? Are you a masochist? Or are you a troll? > [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > How is the claim that “schizophrenia is a mental illness” is not a scientific assertion but one belonging to a field that does not admit scientific investigation anything at all like claiming there is a grand conspiracy at work? “Hypertension is not a medical illness, it’s just a different means of pumping blood. It’s all part of the physiotypical theory. Medical analysis has no business defining the healthy functioning of an organism, that’s like, political, dude!” > [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > When gay rights activists protested that the APA should remove homosexuality from the DSM, was that an anti-scientific move? Yet again this stupid equivocation. Being homosexual means one thing, and one thing only on the tautological level; that you generally prefer sex with people of the same gender. That’s it. Its no more an illness than liking chocolate over vanilla or swiss over cheddar. It also tells you nothing about a person other than that, rather inconsequential, tidbit. Putting that on the same level as hearing voices constantly telling you to kill yourself, being unable to communicate with other people and having paranoid delusions is base absurdity. My grandmother died a paranoid schizophrenic, after causing herself and her family amazing grief and suffering. That you stupid intellectual dilettantes want to pretend that her being unable to care for her own daughter is just another bit of the ‘ideas of the world’ is fucking stupid. Coincidentally enough, so are you. > [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > It is by now clear that you haven’t even considered the conceptual foundations of your supposed “science” claims, which the above shows are anything but. Yes knowing that you’re full of shit clearly means that not one of us has studied research methodology, epistemology, statistical analysis, etc, etc, etc. And we’ve all got a “privileged position” since we’re “technicians”, but your anarchist internet-boyfriend will fix all that, come the revolution. Quote some Nietzsche, bitch. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/184 "2009-07-28T02:34:15Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > I assume you’ve read **AHunter3** ’s series of posts. If not, I think you should. While you have seen some cases of sad ends for schizophrenics, that is not by any means the necessary consequence of that condition. You write about this as though you come at it from some position of authority. In good faith, I ask, are you a mental health professional, a doc, just learn_ed_? Feel free to share as much or little (including now asnwer) as you want, it’s just when someone implicilty holds themself out as an expert, I’m gonna ask. ---
**Author:** ![3trew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/13edae/32.png) [@3trew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3trew)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/185 "2009-07-28T02:42:28Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If a condition robs someone of their ability to reasonably care for themselves (keep a job, maintain hygiene, and stay out of danger) and effectively communicate wants and needs, then what is it if not an illness? Infants are not able to reasonably care for themselves, and can only vaguely communicate their wants and needs by using a (very simple) word salad of “Waaah”, or calling out to an unseen entity named “AnnnnAAAAH”. Your attempt to medicalize EVEN THE STATE OF INFANCY obviously demonstrates that there is no experience you vile empiricists won’t try to bring into your hegemony. Consumer satisfaction survey: Would you say that the above is more batshit crazy than the OP, less batshit crazy than the OP, or about the same? ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/186 "2009-07-28T02:44:03Z")
> [@3trew](#): > > Infants are not able to reasonably care for themselves, and can only vaguely communicate their wants and needs by using a (very simple) word salad of “Waaah”, or calling out to an unseen entity named “AnnnnAAAAH”. Your attempt to medicalize EVEN THE STATE OF INFANCY obviously demonstrates that there is no experience you vile empiricists won’t try to bring into your hegemony. > > Consumer satisfaction survey: > > Would you say that the above is more batshit crazy than the OP, less batshit crazy than the OP, or about the same? more, but only by a couple of degrees ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/187 "2009-07-28T02:46:17Z")
**Kimmy** , your comparisons are profoundly stupid. Calling homosexuality an illness is dumb because people who experience it generally don’t seem to mind the condition itself. Calling schizophrenia an illness isn’t dumb because people who experience it generally dislike the condition itself. It’s not political; it’s definitional. “Disease” has a pretty obvious etymology. If a condition generally puts those who experiences it at dis-ease, it’s a disease. (If you dispute this point, please try not to do so in a sophomoric, “Well, isn’t failing freshman English a disease, then, huh, smart guy?” manner). And science can discuss definitions, if obliquely, in two ways. First, we may observe how words are used. The way the word “disease” is used by native English speakers, it overwhelmingly applies to influenza, Ebola, and schizophrenia. The way it’s used, it overwhelmingly doesn’t apply to homosexuality or masculinity. Second, scientists properly define their terms in all discussions, and “disease” is a term with a definition. By most definitions used by most scientists, “disease” applies to the condition of schizophrenia. There are people who try to define diseases into or out of existence for political purposes, but the descriptions of malaria, mental retardation, schizophrenia, or hydrocephalus as disease states are not politically motivated. Second, equating a schizophrenic who kills her baby with a man who commits a crime is idiotic. She killed her baby **because of the condition of schizophrenia**. Unless a huge percentage of men commit their crimes because of their gender, you lack a point. Wipe the stupid smirk off your face. You’re nowhere near the rebel genius your clove-smoking friends believe you are. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/188 "2009-07-28T02:46:18Z")
It is only because of the politics of ageism that infants do not rule the world. Shitting yourself and flailing about aimlessly is just another lifestyle choice. Smash’s provocative intellectualism is just a different idea of the world, equal to and as valuable as actually knowing wtf you’re talking about and conveying it sans guano. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/189 "2009-07-28T02:52:01Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > I > > Enough brutal crimes have been committed by non-schizophrenics that it’s curious you would single out schizophrenia here in this crime. Nearly every brutal crime that has occurred in the last ten years has been committed by a male, but we don’t classify maleness as an impairment or a disease. Ask yourself why we sieze on schizophrenia when it is coincidentally present during the commission of a crime. I can’t think of any other disorder that would cause someone to believe that the devil wants her child’s brains. Can you? I mean, maybe she’s lying and she actually likes to eat baby brains. But it sure sounds like a delusional disorder to me. And for the record, I’m not speaking as someone who’s met schizophrenics. I’m speaking as someone who has first-hand experience with a lot of the symptomology. I’m not knocking on schizophrenia’s door, but I’ve seen what its living room looks like through the curtains. Perhaps I’ve just been brainwashed by The System, but I’m not finding anything fun or exciting about my condition or the future that may be awaiting me. If I had real emotions, I’d probably be terrified. I appreciate the stance that schizophrenia is not a death sentence and that its complexities make it hard for outsiders to understand. I get it because I know, as an actual scientist, that there ARE things people can only experience to really _get_. But I’ve seen what the disease has done to two relatives and what it’s promodal form has done to me. My relatives weren’t wise sages. They weren’t quirky Cosmo Kramers. They were sick. One committed suicide, the pain was so too great. The other hasn’t lived independently for most of his adult life. All I can do is take my meds, keep healthy, and try to find something that gives me hope in this life. So that I don’t become like them. It’s not society’s fault. Society may misunderstand and may mistreat, but it didn’t create the problems associated with schizophrenia. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/190 "2009-07-28T02:58:56Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Could you repeat this question in some sort of intelligible form? The claim “schizerophrenia is a mental illness” is not a scientific assertion. You cannot prove scientific what is and is not an illness. Just like you cannot scientifically determine whether an allergy to cat dander is a disability. These involve non-scientific judgments. I don’t know how to make it any simpler than that. > [@](#): > > This is a typical lame _tu quoque_ argument, and one whose lack of validity was demonstrated in the Icke thread. To repeat: science has a self-correcting mechanism based on introduction of valid evidence. Woo is self-perpetuating blather. Come on back when you’ve got facts. The facts introduced were not scientific facts. Homosexuality has been pretty much the same since the dawn of time. Nobody did a science experiment and discovered “Wait, we thought homosexuality meant this consequence but it actually means some other consequence.” Rather, a social or political movement got enough people to say “Hmmm…maybe we can be cool with letting 'mos do their thing even though it is different from the thing we like to do and the idea of it makes us a little uncomfortable but hey, it’s a brave new world.” If you contend otherwise, please let me know what anomaly was discovered that caused a reëvaluation of psychiatry’s stance on homosexuality. (The traditional, Kuhnian understanding of how a science self-corrects is by the discovery of an anomaly which paradigmatic theory does not predict. That is the correction comes from within scientific practice. That wasn’t the case with homosexuality and psychiatry.) > [@](#): > > Your assumption is incorrect. I’m a physician who’s had articles published in peer-reviewed medical publications. I have a reasonable familiarity with the scientific method, which you evidently do not. I guess this is what Marshall McLuhan meant by “we don’t know who discovered water, but it wasn’t the fish.” > [@](#): > > My “instinctual unease”, as you put it, is at contemplating the abandonment of millions of mentally impaired and disabled people on the grounds that their illnesses are actually privileges. When did we ever suggest abandoning people. I hope you’re not suggesting every schizophrenic needs to be institutionalized. > [@](#): > > You are a sick cookie. You know, when you’re arguing for the position that there is no social or political element to the practice of science and medicine, you probably shouldn’t use your power to make medical pronouncements as a way of delivering casual insults against your opponents. It makes my task too easy. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/191 "2009-07-28T03:03:19Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > The claim “schizerophrenia is a mental illness” is not a scientific assertion. You cannot prove scientific what is and is not an illness. “This man is dying of heart disease!” “Naw you can’t prove that, it’s political.” You dumb bitch. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/192 "2009-07-28T03:04:35Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > I guess this is what Marshall McLuhan meant by “we don’t know who discovered water, but it wasn’t the fish.” Nah. McLuhan was a prankster and a poet, but he wasn’t a moron. He wasn’t suggesting that the people who work within a discipline don’t understand it. I’d lay money that he was suggesting that people who live within a culture don’t analyze it. Big freakin’ difference. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/193 "2009-07-28T03:06:37Z")
Wait, you mean a pretentious git was quoting (and name dropping) something she didn’t understand, in order to sound deep? Nawwwwwwww! ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/194 "2009-07-28T03:12:47Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > “This man is dying of heart disease!” > “Naw you can’t prove that, it’s political.” Because you refuse to apprehend the point, or perhaps you genuinely are kind of dumb, I won’t address this mischaracterization again, but I will address this… > [@](#): > > You dumb bitch. Perhaps if I shared your politics, I might be terrified that my masculinity were drawn into question or the suggestion that I failed to conform to stereotypical gender rôles. Fortunately, I am a third wave feminist, so my only reaction is to tell you: Lick it up, baby. Lick. It. Up.\* \*Readers more astute than you, **FinnAgain** will detect my free play of signs and signifiers going on here. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/195 "2009-07-28T03:15:40Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > “This man is dying of heart disease!” > “Naw you can’t prove that, it’s political.” > > You dumb bitch. **KG** care to differentiate the two? Could it be that schizophrenia is more like heart disease and less like homsexuality? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/196 "2009-07-28T03:19:28Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Because you refuse to apprehend the point, or perhaps you genuinely are kind of dumb, I won’t address this mischaracterization again, but I will address this… Translation: “Thank god, some low-hanging fruit!” ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/197 "2009-07-28T03:20:30Z")
Because I’m sure you missed this: Yet again, why are you posting on a message board that you admit you hate? Are you simply shit-stupid? Are you a masochist? Or are you a troll? > [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > I won’t address this mischaracterization again Fool, you’ve never addressed it even once. Again implies that it is happening, ya know, again. It’s also not a mischaracterization of anything, you’re simply a pretentious poseur with delusions of competency. We’re perfectly able to define what the healthy functioning of an organism is. That you do not understand this simply shows you to be, yep, fucking stupid. > [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Perhaps if I shared your politics You know about as much of my politics as you do about my career, you idiot agent provocateur. > [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Fortunately, I am a third wave feminist No, you’re just a stupid bitch. Being a stupid bitch has nothing to do with gender roles or any of the shit you may have learned in some Womyn’s Studies class. It has to do with you being a useless, pretentious idiot who happens to be a girl. It’s an insult that happens to be paired with gender, just like if you were a dude I’d correctly note that you were a stupid bastard. > [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Readers more astute than you, **FinnAgain** will detect my free play of signs and signifiers going on here. You stupid, stupid pretentious bitch. Not content to merely be stupid, you need to wave your arms around and holler about how very smart you’re being. “Signs and signifiers! Look I’m being clever! I made a comment, and now I need to explain how my comment shows how clever I am! I’m clever! Look at me being clever!” The discipline is also called semiotics, you fucking waste of carbon. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/198 "2009-07-28T03:26:07Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > And this is just a fancy, bullshitty way of saying that schizophrenics aren’t ill, just endowed with special ways of knowing. Which, as I keep asserting, is simply not true. Schizophrenia is a disease associated with chronic health problems and mental deterioration. It does not make one more enlightened or enhanced with super powers. It robs an individual of self-control and self-awareness. They have a problem with self-expression, yes, but also processing and perceiving information. Their brains are all kinds of fucked up. The OP is no different than people who play up the “wonders” of autism. Yeah, a schizophrenic may hear voices that no one else hears, but if those voices are screaming “cheeburger cheeburger CHEEBURGER!” 24/7, and compelling that person to verbigerate instead of speaking intelligently, then we aren’t talking about the next Nat Turner or Joan of Arc. We’re talking about a very sick person. > > Now, at the milder end of the schizo spectrum (which includes a number of disorders) you may find folks who are able to strike a beautiful balance between their weaknesses (inability to communicate effectively, emotional instability, bizarre behaviors) and strengths (creativity, nonconformity, high intelligence, self-reliance). But these people are NOT schizophrenic, at least not unmedicated schizophrenic. And though it’s true that these people are often unfairly marginalized by Western society, that doesn’t mean they are any more insightful than anyone else. > > Our high-pressured society certainly doesn’t help separating “unusual but functional” from “wackjob/nutjob”, but full-blown schizophrenia is _not_ a social construct. And it’s not just another way of knowing and perceiving. Just like clinical depression isn’t just another way of feeling. Everybody should read this post, then read it again to make sure they got it all, because this guy is absolutely right. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/199 "2009-07-28T03:32:20Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > Everybody should read this post, then read it again to make sure they got it all, because this guy is absolutely right. Psst – **monstro** is a she. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/200 "2009-07-28T03:37:17Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Psst – **monstro** is a she. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > No, you’re just a stupid bitch. Being a stupid bitch has nothing to do with gender roles or any of the shit you may have learned in some Womyn’s Studies class. It has to do with you being a useless, pretentious idiot who happens to be a girl. It’s an insult that happens to be paired with gender, just like if you were a dude I’d correctly note that you were a stupid bastard. Psst – **Kimmy\_Gibbler** is a he. And it’s been in my profile the whole time. Really, you’re doing wonders for your credibility here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298.md?page=11)