# Do any of you know what "science" is? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 26, 2009, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298 "2009-07-26T05:10:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/221 "2009-07-28T05:16:32Z")
It’s not at all ironic. I was told (by someone who understood neither the function of koans, nor the philosophy of Nietzsche nor the art of Picasso) that if I didn’t like psuedo-science masquerading as valid epistemology, then I must believe that koans were woo. Koans aren’t woo. Someone using such an argument, while comparing their own posting to the beauty of a koan, is a fucking cock. If some pretentious idiot claims that opposition to their pseudo-scientific blabbering is the same as calling koans woo, then damn straight I’ll point out that they’re full of shit. It wasn’t like I was behaving like our idiot, name-dropping, quote-dropping dilettantes and posted something like “Oh yah, lol? I are so clever because you don’t even understand koans, rofl!” Unless, of course, you meant that the original claim was ironic… in which case I misunderstood you and I’d still posit that it wasn’t so much ironic as it was fucking stupid. “If you dismiss the claim that there’s no such thing as mental illness because you refuse to ‘unpackage’ my transcendent wisdom then you must hate koans!” is pretty stupid, I hope you’d agree. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/222 "2009-07-28T05:33:39Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > It’s not at all ironic. I was told (by someone who understood neither the function of koans, nor the philosophy of Nietzsche nor the art of Picasso) that if I didn’t like psuedo-science masquerading as valid epistemology, then I must believe that koans were woo. > Koans aren’t woo. Someone using such an argument, while comparing their own posting to the beauty of a koan, is a fucking cock. If some pretentious idiot claims that opposition to their pseudo-scientific blabbering is the same as calling koans woo, then damn straight I’ll point out that they’re full of shit. What in all of that makes it not ironic? That the beauty and simplicity of a zen koan is being used as a projectile in an online pissing contest strikes me as rather funny. 😉 > [@](#): > > It wasn’t like I was behaving like our idiot, name-dropping, quote-dropping dilettantes and posted something like “Oh yah, lol? I are so clever because you don’t even understand koans, rofl!” I didn’t say you were. I was commenting on the irony of the statement, that is all. > [@](#): > > Unless, of course, you meant that the original claim was ironic… in which case I misunderstood you and I’d still posit that it wasn’t so much ironic as it was fucking stupid. “If you dismiss the claim that there’s no such thing as mental illness because you refuse to ‘unpackage’ my transcendent wisdom then you must hate koans!” is pretty stupid, I hope you’d agree. No, I just imagined you yelling across the table and pounding your fist, “You pretentious git, your and Smashy’s babbling is nowhere near the elegant simplicity of koan!”, yes his part in the whole interplay led to the irony, but calling someone a git and lecturing them about the utility of a zen koan is rather funny. What makes it ironic is that the pissing match, whoever is right or wrong, is pretty far from the elegant simplicity of a zen koan. 😉 And yes to be fair his reference to zen koans was some kind of appeal to authority, which is in and of itself a logical fallacy. In all fairness it made me wonder how many times Picasso was told he was a fool and compared to someone who was considered a luminary of his day. I’m not saying **Kimmy\_Gibbler** is today’s Picasso, he might not even paint for all I know. And to put an even finer point on it. Neither of you is of the stature of Friedrich Nietzche. I doubt either of you has kissed a horse lately! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/223 "2009-07-28T05:46:36Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > What in all of that makes it not ironic? “You’re not as wise as I am! Why, my posts are like koans, and if you don’t agree with my posts, you probably also don’t like koans!” “Your posts are nothing like koans, your writing is sloppy and stupid.” There’s no irony there. If it’s brought up koans out of the blue, you might have a point. But it was in direct response to the claim that by failing to appreciate the brilliance of Smashy and Co, that I must also be unable to appreciate Nietzsche, koans, or Picasso. It’s not ironic and it’d be no different if it was anything else of the same sort. “My posting is as deep and logically coherent as quantum math, if you don’t agree with me you must be an uncultured philistine stuck in a Newtonian universe.” “Your thoughts are neither coherent nor deep and bear no relationship to the shockingly novel mathematical beauty of quantum mechanics.” > [@mswas](#): > > calling someone a git and lecturing them about the utility of a zen koan is rather funny. I lectured nobody. I pointed out that someone who was rather arrogantly claiming that their wooism had any relation to the philosophy of Neitzche or the art of Picasso or the elegant simplicity of a koan was full of shit. It wasn’t an appeal to authority, either. It was a false analogy whereby Kimmy compared his own posting to to Zen koans and alleged that opposing him was tantamount to being a boorish lout who didn’t appreciate philosophy or art. Oh, and you shouldn’t picture me smashing the table. More like sneering across it. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/224 "2009-07-28T06:13:56Z")
My point is that Zen Koans purpose are to make you calm and at peace, and help you to avoid measuring your dick next to someone else’s. To put it bluntly. The rightness or wrongness of each side is irrelevant to that. What is ironic is that two people who are not being particularly Zen are bludgeoning each other with Zen koans. If either of you had been availing yourselves of the simplicity of a Zen Koan, neither of you would be in the mood to argue. I’m not insulting you, just commenting on something that struck me as funny. I saw the irony encapsulated best by a sentence that included, “stupid git”, and “the simplicity of a zen koan”. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/225 "2009-07-28T07:11:56Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > The claim “schizerophrenia is a mental illness” is not a scientific assertion. You cannot prove scientific what is and is not an illness. Just like you cannot scientifically determine whether an allergy to cat dander is a disability. These involve non-scientific judgments. Is it your contention that something that contains any non-scientific judgments is therefore not scientific? ---
**Author:** ![Lama\_Pacos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Lama\_Pacos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lama_Pacos)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/226 "2009-07-28T07:28:44Z")
In response to the OP, yeah, there are a lot of really stupid, ignorant people here. This forum is deceptive because the average English composition level is much higher here than many communities on the Internet, but there are plenty of people here who can write a fine paragraph but otherwise don’t have two brain cells to rub together. I was impressed when I first read the SDMB, and I don’t know if I’ve changed or its membership has, but now I spend most of my time here rolling my eyes. There are definitely some interesting, smart people here with good things to say but they’re outliers as far as I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![Lama\_Pacos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Lama\_Pacos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lama_Pacos)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/227 "2009-07-28T07:38:17Z")
Though I will mention that I still frequently find topics in General Questions, specifically, enlightening. ---
**Author:** ![Other\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Other\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Other_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/228 "2009-07-28T07:46:57Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yet again, why are you posting on a message board that you admit you hate? > Are you simply shit-stupid? > Are you a masochist? > Or are you a troll? This has become annoying and unnecessary, **FinnAgain**. It is clear that Kimmy and Smashy(Is this the name you prefer?) merely wish for a majority of the posters to leave(or become more “open-minded”\*). It isn’t the board they detest, it is the people. They appreciate what SDMB stands for, but they don’t agree with how the members are operating here. I think. This might be another **Hunter Hawk** scenario I’ve found myself in. And while I understand that this is the pit, do we _really_ need to throw insults at people simply because we disagree with them? ~S.P.I.~ \*By open-minded I mean their definition of open-minded, which includes the various theories already brought up by more interested parties. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/229 "2009-07-28T07:54:36Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > No. For a couple of reasons. First, because at this particular moment I am annoyed and not inclined to waste even more of my time on people who have made it clear they have no interest in actual discussion; all they want is a human football they can kick to make themselves feel superior. :rolleyes: They always do that. “Nobody listens to me when I do [perfectly reasonable thing]! All they do is yell!” “Well, then do [perfectly reasonable thing].” “No, you’re a bunch of mean meany-heads!” ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/230 "2009-07-28T08:35:22Z")
> [@](#): > > **Kimmy** : If you contend otherwise, please let me know what anomaly was discovered that caused a reëvaluation of psychiatry’s stance on homosexuality. (The traditional, Kuhnian understanding of how a science self-corrects is by the discovery of an anomaly which paradigmatic theory does not predict. That is the correction comes from within scientific practice. That wasn’t the case with homosexuality and psychiatry.) If I remember correctly, studies of both identical twins raised together and identical twins raised apart showed higher correlations of the development of homosexual interests than the correlations in fraternal twins raised together and fraternal twins raised apart. The implication was that the source of homosexuality was genetic. I think this was one major influence in changing the thinking in psychiatry which had previously considered homosexuality a perversion. **Monstro** , I hope that you are not making the mistake of diagnosing yourself. Sometimes the more informed you become, the more likely you are to do that. But if you have been diagnosed by a doctor, my heart goes out to you. It would explain some of the fear reaction you have described. Your posts have been spot on! Some schizophrenics can be very articulate and perceptive. Others can be more like **Colibri’s** father. They are not all alike. When we stop thinking of them as individuals or deserving of our contempt, we’ve shown a shallowness in ourselves. But when Boxcar Willie and Elizabeth II are conspiring lizards, it’s time to come in out of the rain. I saw Monarch butterflies playing football one time, but I was having a fever dream. **Kimmy** , I think you are just stringing folks along for a laugh this time – especially considering the mocking wording on your responses. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/231 "2009-07-28T08:50:13Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I have had conversations with people speaking the highly symbolic schizophrenic language. I am not sure if they were schizophrenic or not, but there was something there, something more than I think is being allowed for by the mythbusting neckbeards. > > I won’t make any pseudo-scientific speculation, but I have had some pretty strange conversations with people that had their own internal logic and made sense, at least I could understand them. I’ve had these conversations and when the person left had my friends start making fun of their unintelligible babbling. To me it was a real conversation, not unintelligible babble. > > I don’t think I am schizophrenic. If I am, I am a highly functioning one. I can put on the normal everyday society face if I need to. I know how to tie a windsor knot. I can speak off the cuff to a crowded room. I can get good grades in an organized school curriculum, I can work a full time job, and I can take care of a baby. > > But, I have experienced many things in my life that the neckbeards around her would like to deride, would like to tell me was delusional. I have given a lot of thought to the subjective world in which we live, one that is dismissed around here as being invalid. People on this board seem to labor under the misapprehension that subjective = false. > > In my experience, the crazy people I have talked to are very open to suggestion. They repeat things and babble about things that they have directly experienced. They take that experience and weave it into a narrative that most people are unwilling to bother to even listen to. If you can figure out the key, then you can unlock the conversation. If you ever get to listen to a schizophrenics rambling screed, listen for keywords. Look for significant objects in the room, or recent snippets of conversation they may have overheard. If you recognize the object of their obsession, they might just open up and talk to you, if you are willing and want to do that. > > It doesn’t work if you are being patronizing, if you hold that person in your pity or your contempt. > > I won’t go so far as saying schizophrenia is not a debilitating disease. I am not a Doctor. I won’t go so far as saying that the schizophrenic is some misunderstood genius. What I will say is that what they are talking about, might just have it’s own internal logic that you do not understand. > > Some schizophrenics are likely too far gone to realize that people hold them in contempt. Others more functional ones put on a mask, and play the role that they are prescribed. Others still slip through the cracks intentionally. > > All I know, is that there is a world of flowers out there for neckbeards to stomp on, and if someone randomly screams, maybe you just walked across their tulips. > > Now the irony of this particular insult made my day. Using a Zen koan as a bludgeon to smite your enemies. Now that flower is some kind of cactus with barbed spikes sticking out from it. 😉 I’ll keep this in mind next time you start expounding on “States’ Rights.” ---
**Author:** ![Other\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Other\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Other_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/232 "2009-07-28T08:52:47Z")
Kimmy, is Mr. Smash returning to his thread anytime soon? Or has he tired of us? I was interested in hearing his replies. ~S.P.I.~ ---
**Author:** ![gladtobeblazed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85f322/32.png) [@gladtobeblazed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gladtobeblazed)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/233 "2009-07-28T08:59:46Z")
You know what would make for an awesome band name? **Ass-Burger** I’m sorry, but I’m still laughing at that. ---
**Author:** ![Other\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Other\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Other_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/234 "2009-07-28T09:33:57Z")
> [@gladtobeblazed](#): > > You know what would make for an awesome band name? Funny that, I was just playing with the book title _Grapes of Wrath_ and got _Vineyard Redemption_ out of it. I thought that would make a pretty cool band name or something… ~S.P.I.~ \ ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/235 "2009-07-28T10:07:10Z")
I was reading this thread and thought “The Spasming Assholes” would make a great band name. ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/236 "2009-07-28T12:28:50Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > You’re just like every other message board community: full of **self-important** willy-waggers, strutting about in your tiny pond of incestuous clusterfucking, slapping each other on the back for supporting one another’s delusions of mastery. The irony is strong in this one. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/237 "2009-07-28T13:34:26Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > And for good reason. The Glass Bead Game is an interesting distraction and can be fun when played in the ivory tower for grades. When played by truly exceptional men and women, it can shine light on the human condition and move us forward as a culture. When used as a masturbatory aid by intellectual dilettantes and poseurs, it’s obnoxious. I agree with maybe 10% of what **FinnAgain** says on these boards, but this here is Dead. Fucking. On. It works for Foucault. It works (very differently) for Eco. It almost works for Said. **Kimmy\_Gibbler** does not wear his erudition so well. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/238 "2009-07-28T13:40:05Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > My point is that Zen Koans purpose are to make you calm and at peace, and help you to avoid measuring your dick next to someone else’s. For what it’s worth, the purpose of the zen koan is to do quite the reverse. A properly contemplated koan should create a burning lead ball in your gut. I doubt that Kimmy really understands them, either. ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/239 "2009-07-28T13:40:41Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > You’re just like every other message board community: full of self-important willy-waggers, strutting about in your tiny pond of incestuous clusterfucking, slapping each other on the back for supporting one another’s delusions of mastery. “One of us! One of us!” ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/240 "2009-07-28T14:28:16Z")
> [@Lama\_Pacos](#): > > In response to the OP, yeah, there are a lot of really stupid, ignorant people here. This forum is deceptive because the average English composition level is much higher here than many communities on the Internet, but there are plenty of people here who can write a fine paragraph but otherwise don’t have two brain cells to rub together. > > I was impressed when I first read the SDMB, and I don’t know if I’ve changed or its membership has, but now I spend most of my time here rolling my eyes. There are definitely some interesting, smart people here with good things to say but they’re outliers as far as I can tell. This, sadly, is seemingly true. **Finn Again** , without addressing the merit of your position on the underlying subject at hand (“science”), your approach here is nothing but absurd. Of course, it is Teh Pit, so perhaps you think that insulting someone repeatedly without truly addressing the points they are making is what the place is all about (and I’d be hard pressed to disagree, based on what I read here). But it just makes you look stupid. Indeed, it scores points for the opposition. :smack: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298.md?page=13)