# Do any of you know what "science" is? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 26, 2009, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298 "2009-07-26T05:10:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/41 "2009-07-26T12:33:06Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > For people who conceit themselves to be the so much smarter than everyone else, you are some of the stupidest, most ignorant, and poorly-read dipshits I have yet to encounter anywhere on the Internet. Or off it, for that matter. Y’know, I hang out here because I think many of the people are intelligent, thoughtful, perceptive posters, and I enjoy talking with them. I can’t imagine what sort of pathology would lead me to spend my time on a messageboard filled with some of the stupidest, most ignorant, and poorly-read dipshits on the Internet. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/42 "2009-07-26T13:05:08Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Invective aside, what you are saying \*\*StS \*\* amounts to a suggestion that there is something wrong with people asking for cites and then rejecting the cites when given. Asking for a cite is a way of seeing what backing someone can find for their position. That backing may well exist but not be sufficient to convince people, if lame. > > The fact that few here agree with you, \*\*StS \*\* is probably because that’s the sort of guy you are, I suppose that’s why you go over people’s heads, a bit like an aeroplane. 'Cause you’re a rider at the gates of dawn and you take no prisoners. Right? I take it to mean that he distrusts people motives in asking for cites. People here don’t want cites so that they can consider their position taking into account new/further information, They want cites so that they can go “Na na na you are wrong, oh man you are so dumb didnt you even read that I dont know why I bother with you trollliarcunts…” I happen to agree with him on this. Yeah sure, its the internet, and people will always want to argue more than they want to learn, But I do think that people here should have a little more shame about putting themselves forward as fighting ignorance. Nah, they are just fighting. > [@Quartz](#): > > Don’t let the door hit you on the way out. I would glady support any board rule that automatically bans pricks who feel the need to post this. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/43 "2009-07-26T13:24:25Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > I have been contributing to SD for about two months now, and I have to say that anyone coming here looking for science is going to be sadly disappointed. What I have seen is an old boys’ network of neckbeards and aspies jerking off to the worst sort of Mythbusters populism. Anyone who brings a fresh perspective to this vile den of basement-dwelling cretins is either ignored or mocked. > > A typical thread for me goes like this: > > [ul] > [li]I post something provocative – provocative not because it’s untrue or ridiculous, but because it falls outside the comfort zone of the myopic ass-burger turds whose knowledge of science seems to come entirely from Richard Dawkins and old episodes of Nova.[/li] > [li]Like a pack of retarded howler monkeys, the Usual Suspects burst out with a chorus of “CITE CITE CITE!!!”[/li] > [li]I spend several hours researching citations to support my claim. In the mean time, a half-dozen ass-burger clowns and other antisocial rejects have made drive-by mockings on the basis that maybe they’ll feel less inferior if they dogpile someone they believe is lower on the totem pole than them.[/li] > [li]I post my citations.[/li] > [li]At this point, either my citations are completely ignored and everyone pretends I don’t exist because their attention span is limited by the 20 second porn clips to which they have become accusted in their miserable, lonely lives, or they proclaims my citations to be worthless because those I am citing are not in agreement with their preconceptions.[/li] > [li]If I protest that science does not work this way, that it is the philosophy of pure empiricism and cannot make truth claims, I am told, and I quote, “[Science cannot invoke an absolute truth in the matter; it can only point fingers and laugh.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11377781#post11377781)”[/li][/ul] Best example of poisoning the well I have ever seen. “I’m a genius and everyone who disagrees or mocks me is an ass-burger.” Long as it makes you feel better. > [@](#): > > For people who conceit themselves to be the so much smarter than everyone else, you are some of the stupidest, most ignorant, and poorly-read dipshits I have yet to encounter anywhere on the Internet. Or off it, for that matter. > > _“I have only made but one prayer in my life: ‘O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.’ And God granted it.”_ – **Voltaire** You seem like a nice person of gentle temperment. I want you to have a great day. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/44 "2009-07-26T14:11:43Z")
I was hoping that this would be a chance for me to rant about how the “scientific method” as we teach it in schools is dumb and not actually how scientists operate, but I’ll guess I’ll have to start my own thread about that. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/45 "2009-07-26T14:15:33Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Best example of poisoning the well I have ever seen. “I’m a genius and everyone who disagrees or mocks me is an ass-burger.” Long as it makes you feel better. > > You seem like a nice person of gentle temperment. I want you to have a great day. The op may have a point about standard MO here though. I simply posted agnosticism could be logical choice in a GD thread, then had to sort through lots of straw man and poisoned well bullshit as a response. I also “learned” agnosticism is evil because it doesn’t denounce religion. Eventually I got annoyed and left the thread for much more productive things such as masturbation. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/46 "2009-07-26T14:46:36Z")
I dropped out of the schizophrenia thread because **SmashtheState** ’s initial response to my question suggested he wasn’t willing to engage honestly with his ideas, a prerequisite for science of any sort. I asked why “mental illness” was not an accurate descriptor, and the reply seemed to be semantics, not science. Plus it was too soon after the final **KGS** thread. I have some expertise in one part of it (shamanism) but not another (schizophrenia, though I did study under Nancy Scheper-Hughes, who wrote _Saints, Scholars and Schizophrenics: Mental Illness in Rural Ireland_). Even if it’s true that many shamans are what would be diagnosed as schizophrenia, something I consider a real posibility, the lives they lead aren’t all roses. Despite the post-Castañeda and post-Eliade respect for shamanism, within traditional society shamans often live a life of poverty, called on and paid when needed but otherwise shunned, often living in squalid conditions at some distance from the rest of their society. Parents do not want their children to grow up to be shamans, and often both parents and shamans themselves have some years of resisting it before they finally give in to the gods / spirits. Documentation of this is extensive, at least in Asia. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/47 "2009-07-26T15:03:28Z")
Schizophrenia is not just hearing voices and having “revelations”. It involves bizarre body movements and clumsiness. Racing thoughts that _literally_ hurt. Anxiety and depression. Intense paranoia. An inability to experience pleasure and emotion. Confused thinking and bizarre behavior Inarticulate, disorganized speech. Intense Loneliness. Suicidal ideation. 1% of the population may have schizophrenia, but 10% of them commit suicide because of it. It’s a mental illness, dude. That it’s often wrapped up in high intelligence (which is debatable) and creativity doesn’t mean it isn’t a serious disease that should be treated. ---
**Author:** ![gladtobeblazed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85f322/32.png) [@gladtobeblazed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gladtobeblazed)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/48 "2009-07-26T15:03:55Z")
I can’t stop loling at the term “ass-burger”. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/49 "2009-07-26T15:28:34Z")
He doesn’t mean to be a jerk, he has ass-burger syndrome. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/50 "2009-07-26T15:38:14Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > However, there are _three_ means of obtaining useful information: empiricism, rationalism, **and revelation**. Each has its strengths and its weaknesses. (Bolding added.) Goodness. There’s your problem right there! What, pray tell, are the strengths of revelation as an epistomological strategy? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/51 "2009-07-26T15:52:56Z")
Batman’s a scientist. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/52 "2009-07-26T15:54:59Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > (Unless you’re **Rand Rover** ’s sock.) What, everyone you don’t like must be one person? Since you have a female name and aren’t that bright, must mean you and Guinistasia and Rubystreak are all the same person. ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/53 "2009-07-26T15:57:17Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > 1% of the population may have schizophrenia, but 10% of them commit suicide because of it. > > It’s a mental illness, dude. That it’s often wrapped up in high intelligence (which is debatable) and creativity doesn’t mean it isn’t a serious disease that should be treated. Homosexual teens are approximately three times as likely to [commit suicide](http://www.outproud.org/article_suicide.html) than the general teen population, and account for about 30% of all teen suicides. Does that make homosexuality a mental illness, “a serious disease that should be treated”? Or is it rather more likely that these suicides are the result of prejudice and social rejection? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/54 "2009-07-26T16:00:23Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Homosexual teens are approximately three times as likely to [commit suicide](http://www.outproud.org/article_suicide.html) than the general teen population, and account for about 30% of all teen suicides. Does that make homosexuality a mental illness, “a serious disease that should be treated”? Or is it rather more likely that these suicides are the result of prejudice and social rejection? Are you saying that you’re likely to commit suicide unless we stop rejecting your pseudo science bullshit? Because I don’t think that threat has the weight you think it does. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/55 "2009-07-26T16:07:37Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > What, pray tell, are the strengths of revelation as an epistomological strategy? _“How often people speak of art and science as though they were two entirely different things, with no interconnection. An artist is emotional, they think, and uses only his intuition; he sees all at once and has no need of reason. A scientist is cold, they think, and uses only his reason; he argues carefully step by step, and needs no imagination. That is all wrong. The true artist is quite rational as well as imaginative and knows what he is doing; if he does not, his art suffers. The true scientist is quite imaginative as well as rational, and sometimes leaps to solutions where reason can follow only slowly; if he does not, his science suffers.”_ – **Isaac Asimov** , The Roving Mind (1983), Chap 25 _“My view of the matter, for what it is worth, is that there is no such thing as a logical method of having new ideas, or a logical reconstruction of this process. My view may be expressed by saying that every discovery contains an ‘irrational element,’ or ‘a creative intuition,’ in Bergson’s sense. In a similar way Einstein speaks of the ‘search for those highly universal laws from which a picture of the world can be obtained by pure deduction. There is no logical path.’ he says, 'leading to these laws. They can only be reached by intuition, based upon something like an intellectual love of the objects of experience.”_ – **Karl Popper** , The Logic of Scientific Discovery: Logik Der Forschung ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/56 "2009-07-26T16:07:46Z")
> [@hansel](#): > > Dude, it’s the pit. When someone proves you’re wrong, you double-down and post something about his mother and the randy goat with which she consorted. /me shoves **hansel** ’s Mother up **Bosstone** ’s ass. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/57 "2009-07-26T16:11:40Z")
**SmashtheState** has not learned the wisdom in the phrase. _Those who know don’t say, and those who say don’t know._ I’d like to give a shoutout to my man **treaps** wherever you are. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/58 "2009-07-26T16:15:23Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > I happen to agree with him on this. Yeah sure, its the internet, and people will always want to argue more than they want to learn, But I do think that people here should have a little more shame about putting themselves forward as fighting ignorance. Nah, they are just fighting. See there is your mistake. This forum isn’t dedicated to fighting ignorance, it’s dedicated to _fighting ignorants_. I think that every time someone says, “On a board dedicated to fighting ignorance I can’t believe anyone would post such a thing.”, as if they never stopped to consider just whose ignorance they are fighting. If you are here fighting the ignorance of anyone but yourself then you are doing it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/59 "2009-07-26T16:17:15Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > _“How often people speak of art and science as though they were two entirely different things, with no interconnection. An artist is emotional, they think, and uses only his intuition; he sees all at once and has no need of reason. A scientist is cold, they think, and uses only his reason; he argues carefully step by step, and needs no imagination. That is all wrong. The true artist is quite rational as well as imaginative and knows what he is doing; if he does not, his art suffers. The true scientist is quite imaginative as well as rational, and sometimes leaps to solutions where reason can follow only slowly; if he does not, his science suffers.”_ – **Isaac Asimov** , The Roving Mind (1983), Chap 25 > > _“My view of the matter, for what it is worth, is that there is no such thing as a logical method of having new ideas, or a logical reconstruction of this process. My view may be expressed by saying that every discovery contains an ‘irrational element,’ or ‘a creative intuition,’ in Bergson’s sense. In a similar way Einstein speaks of the ‘search for those highly universal laws from which a picture of the world can be obtained by pure deduction. There is no logical path.’ he says, 'leading to these laws. They can only be reached by intuition, based upon something like an intellectual love of the objects of experience.”_ – **Karl Popper** , The Logic of Scientific Discovery: Logik Der Forschung These are arguments for the power of _imagination_, not _revelation_. And imagination is not a valid epistomological strategy. The fact that we can imagine a thing says nothing about whether that thing correlates with reality in any way, i.e. whether or not it is true. Imagination may produce fresh propositions to be subjected to validation, but it provides no validation in and of itself. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298/60 "2009-07-26T16:35:02Z")
So does the fact that you totally hate the long standing and proudly held culture of the SDMB mean you’re finally going to go away and peddle your anarco-batshittery somewhere else? Surely there’s a bunch of message board nuisances somewhere who need a union. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-of-you-know-what-science-is/504298.md?page=4)