# Do any other wealthy, developed nations have the level of police violence in the US **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 8, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-other-wealthy-developed-nations-have-the-level-of-police-violence-in-the-us/717153 "2015-04-08T20:32:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2015, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-other-wealthy-developed-nations-have-the-level-of-police-violence-in-the-us/717153/61 "2015-04-11T14:41:58Z")
Checking in from Ireland. I managed to think of a [police shooting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_John_Carthy) here. In the year 2000. If you read the link, you’ll see that it was HUGE national news for a very long time. Inquiries, a tribunal, an apology from the Prime Minister to the victim’s family, reforms to the armed response system meaning that (so far, touch wood) no other armed siege in the country has ended with a loss of life. Meanwhile, the FBI inquiry (the Guards here asked for one in order to have an independent opinion) concluded that the main problem was that _they didn’t shoot him soon enough_, and that failing to shoot him ‘after he had repeatedly ignored warnings and had previously aimed and fired his shotgun at Garda officers was **inconsistent with accepted law enforcement practices in the United States** ’. Bolding mine. The Gardaí tried really, really hard not to shoot this guy. The FBI were clearly startled and at least a bit disapproving of how hard they tried. The attitudes are completely different. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-other-wealthy-developed-nations-have-the-level-of-police-violence-in-the-us/717153/62 "2015-04-11T16:02:02Z")
> [@JustinC](#): > > These types of images seem to crop up on a daily basis, for US cops. Maybe they do for other countries as well, I don’t know. Admittedly older, but the anecdotal message from a lot of Soldiers I knew who served in Germany (late Cold War through the 90s) was “Don’t f\*&$ with the Polizei!” The perception was while the Polizei were less likely to use deadly force, they were a lot more likely use force than their American counterparts. Most seemed to have a story of either seeing it happen personally or knowing someone in their unit that got stupid and beat with the obvious evidence. That anecdotal information is 2+ decades old at this point. It’s also coming from a demographic that might be at higher risk of getting beat - predominantly young, male, fit, foreign and with poor German skills to understand commands. Being young and stupid they spent a lot of off duty time in areas with young, stupid, drunk locals…who also were prime candidates for earning some love from a Polizei baton as a visual example. The reputation was there though - “Don’t F with the Polizei or you’ll get beat.” The French police seem to have a more recent reputation for violence against immigrant populations. They of course deny the allegations. The French case especially points out a problem. Data on lower levels of force is probably harder to parse out of the noise since it’s less obvious than actual death and is not investigated as thoroughly. It may well be a comparison that is more favorable to the US than police homicides though. A lot of they civilian law enforcement I’ve known (overrepresented as a civilian occupation among US Reserve Component Soldiers) talked about having use of force policies where engaging physically came higher up the continuum of force than tools like OC or the Taser. Either way I’d be surprised if there was solid enough data to get a good comparison that is meaningful. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-other-wealthy-developed-nations-have-the-level-of-police-violence-in-the-us/717153/63 "2015-04-11T16:26:25Z")
French police have had a hard-earned reputation for easily using — non-deadly — force since at least the 19th century, when all nation’s police were fairly free with their hands, but especially during the 20th century, even during the riots our neighbours indulged in rather promiscuously. Not just with immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-other-wealthy-developed-nations-have-the-level-of-police-violence-in-the-us/717153/64 "2015-04-11T16:40:09Z")
> [@eclectic\_wench](#): > > Checking in from Ireland. I managed to think of a [police shooting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_John_Carthy) here. In the year 2000. > > If you read the link, you’ll see that it was HUGE national news for a very long time. Inquiries, a tribunal, an apology from the Prime Minister to the victim’s family, reforms to the armed response system meaning that (so far, touch wood) no other armed siege in the country has ended with a loss of life. > > Meanwhile, the FBI inquiry (the Guards here asked for one in order to have an independent opinion) concluded that the main problem was that _they didn’t shoot him soon enough_, and that failing to shoot him ‘after he had repeatedly ignored warnings and had previously aimed and fired his shotgun at Garda officers was **inconsistent with accepted law enforcement practices in the United States** ’. > > Bolding mine. The Gardaí tried really, really hard not to shoot this guy. The FBI were clearly startled and at least a bit disapproving of how hard they tried. The attitudes are completely different. Yeah, the US is continuing to be a bad example in so many fields of what not to do in a wealthy country. Our police, our military, our health care system, our political system, our economic system, etc. The list of screw ups keeps growing, we really need to do something about it. I saw an episode of cops once where a guy got pulled over, then sped away and the cop shot at his car. Fleeing an arrest is a misdemeanor, I think 1 degree more serious than jaywalking. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2015, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-other-wealthy-developed-nations-have-the-level-of-police-violence-in-the-us/717153/65 "2015-04-11T16:48:21Z")
Since the discussion has moved beyond the existence of differences between the US and other countries to the reasons for those differences, let’s move this over to GD. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2015, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-other-wealthy-developed-nations-have-the-level-of-police-violence-in-the-us/717153/66 "2015-04-11T23:31:06Z")
I think US cops resort to guns more than other Western countries is because, in the US, a gun is considered a tool to be used to solve problems: a gun is used to protect us from crime and the government. “An armed society is a polite society” let’s people know that just the presence of guns positively affects society. In other Western countries a gun is considered a weapon to be used rarely, like in times of war, or in hunting. To a US cop their gun is just another tool, like their billy club or hand cuffs, and so it gets used more often. This is not unique to cops but to all Americans. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2015, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-other-wealthy-developed-nations-have-the-level-of-police-violence-in-the-us/717153/67 "2015-04-12T06:49:49Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > “An armed society is a polite society” let’s people know that just the presence of guns positively affects society. Because idiosyncratic SF authors are where you want to take your social guidelines from. Especially when it’s a provably wrong statement. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2015, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-other-wealthy-developed-nations-have-the-level-of-police-violence-in-the-us/717153/68 "2015-04-12T12:25:31Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I have read the US has upwards of 1000 citizens killed by police per year vs something like \<10 per year in Australia, Germany, Japan, UK, Canada. > > Does any wealthy country have this problem other than the US? What about France, Italy, Spain, New Zealand, Israel, etc? There are no other “wealthy, developed nation” comparable to the USA. Other wealthy, developed nations tend to be older and much more culturally and ethnically homogenous. It makes little sense to compare the number of citizens killed by the police, without also looking at the number of police officers killed by the citizens (while on duty). ---
**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2015, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-other-wealthy-developed-nations-have-the-level-of-police-violence-in-the-us/717153/69 "2015-04-12T13:40:31Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > There are no other “wealthy, developed nation” comparable to the USA. Other wealthy, developed nations tend to be older and much more culturally and ethnically homogenous. Ireland is considerably younger than the US (less than a century as a nation) and, while we were very homogeneous until about twenty years ago, now more than 10% of the population was born outside the country. (Correction: according to the [Central Statistics Office](http://cso.ie/en/newsandevents/pressreleases/2012pressreleases/pressreleasethisisireland-highlightsfromcensus2011part1/), as of 2011, 17% of Irish residents were born outside Ireland. I’d say that’s pretty heterogeneous.) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2015, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-other-wealthy-developed-nations-have-the-level-of-police-violence-in-the-us/717153/70 "2015-04-12T15:02:51Z")
Canada has a foreign born population of 20%, the greatest percentage of any of the G8 nations. Toronto, the largest city, hovers around 50% foreign born, making it one of the most diverse cities in the world. > **[Canada's foreign-born population soars to 6.8 million | CBC News](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canada-s-foreign-born-population-soars-to-6-8-million-1.1308179)** > > The debut of Canada's controversial census replacement survey shows there are more foreign-born residents than ever before. Statistics Canada's National Household Survey (NHS), released today, says there are 6.8 million residents originally from... Canada also has two major language populations, English and French, plus numerous aboriginal groups. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2015, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-other-wealthy-developed-nations-have-the-level-of-police-violence-in-the-us/717153/71 "2015-04-12T15:05:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t buy that the immense disparities I pointed out in post #16 are explained solely by the differences in amounts of guns and gun violence in America. As I pointed out, US cops are more than 14,000 times more likely to kill someone per capita than the UK, and 200 times more likely to use deadly force _per gun murder_ – 200 times more killings by police even when the difference in gun violence is factored out of the equation. Is that really more shocking than the idea of the US having 10,000 homicides by handgun while the UK has around 35? Beyond that, there are plenty of other forms of police violence other than shootings(which in some cases are justified). For example beatings by police particularly in the pre-1960s pre-Miranda days were vastly more common than now and French and German police may not shoot as many people but certainly the Muslim, Arab, and Turkish residents can testify to the fact that they’re hardly bleeding hearts. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-other-wealthy-developed-nations-have-the-level-of-police-violence-in-the-us/717153/72 "2015-04-12T15:20:56Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Is that really more shocking than the idea of the US having 10,000 homicides by handgun while the UK has around 35? Yes – the ratio is significantly different. 14,000 vs ~50 (10,000/(35\*6)) using your numbers. Big difference in ratios. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-other-wealthy-developed-nations-have-the-level-of-police-violence-in-the-us/717153/73 "2015-04-13T01:47:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Because idiosyncratic SF authors are where you want to take your social guidelines from. Especially when it’s a provably wrong statement. I’ve heard more than a few pro-gun enthusiasts make the “polite” argument. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-other-wealthy-developed-nations-have-the-level-of-police-violence-in-the-us/717153/74 "2015-04-13T03:18:54Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > The impression I get, is that police killings and by implication the police themselves, are openly racist in the USA while most in South Africa are not. It is significant that in SA only 10% of officers on the street are white. That might be because South Africa has a black majority while the US does not. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-other-wealthy-developed-nations-have-the-level-of-police-violence-in-the-us/717153/75 "2015-04-13T03:38:26Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > … “Don’t F with the Polizei or you’ll get beat.” > > … The French case especially points out a problem. Data on lower levels of force is probably harder to parse out of the noise since it’s less obvious than actual death and is not investigated as thoroughly. It may well be a comparison that is more favorable to the US than police homicides though. Police by their nature sometimes need to use force; often force is used inappropriately. BUT discussions of non-lethal force serves to ignore the very key point in this discussion: _ **Non-suicidal people would much MUCH rather be beaten up than dead.** _ ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-other-wealthy-developed-nations-have-the-level-of-police-violence-in-the-us/717153/76 "2015-04-13T04:03:50Z")
> [@eclectic\_wench](#): > > Ireland is considerably younger than the US Ireland is older than the UK and most nations in the world as a social entity. And, if we look at Ireland in its entirety, The Irish have proven to be vastly more violent than the USA. Name a single city in North America than needs a Berlin-like wall to separate neighborhoods? And Ireland is not heterogeneous. Even if all 17% of those born outside of Ireland were of nationalities other than Irish (excluding returning Irish Americans and others) that leaves 83% of the population as Irish dating back millennia. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-other-wealthy-developed-nations-have-the-level-of-police-violence-in-the-us/717153/77 "2015-04-13T08:56:59Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I’ve heard more than a few pro-gun enthusiasts make the “polite” argument. Well you Americans are very polite. To the point that as a Scandinavian it takes some getting past the suspicion that you’re faking it and really just trying to sell me something. Well maybe you are. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-other-wealthy-developed-nations-have-the-level-of-police-violence-in-the-us/717153/78 "2015-04-13T09:15:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t buy that the immense disparities I pointed out in post #16 are explained solely by the differences in amounts of guns and gun violence in America. As I pointed out, US cops are more than 14,000 times more likely to kill someone per capita than the UK, and 200 times more likely to use deadly force _per gun murder_ – 200 times more killings by police even when the difference in gun violence is factored out of the equation. In these videos I am usually struck by the amatur nature of the police response. Like with that 14-year old boy in the park waving a gun around. The police drive right up, jump out and confront. That’s like zero training. The response of people who have no clue whatsoever. Trained professionals diffuse situations not bring them to a high octane conclusion. Similarly in the latest shooting, how come the very first action once the policeman caught up with him wasn’t to handcuff the guy on the floor … Through bad training - or lack of ongoing assessment, police are creating problems. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-other-wealthy-developed-nations-have-the-level-of-police-violence-in-the-us/717153/79 "2015-04-13T10:49:17Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > There are no other “wealthy, developed nation” comparable to the USA. Other wealthy, developed nations tend to be older and much more culturally and ethnically homogenous. Australia would like to have a word with you. And New Zealand. And probably a few other developed nations that don’t consider themselves all that homogenous. > [@DinoR](#): > > 😃 Most recent societal homicide annual rate in parentheses and bolded items have a higher homicide rate that the US: > **The Bahamas (26.1 !!!)** > Norway (2.2) > **Bermuda (10.8)**(British overseas territory who’s GNI/homicide numbers aren’t included in the UK but it’s completely independent either) > Belgium ( 1.6) > **Estonia (5.0) > Lithuania (6.7)** > Finland (1.6) > Greece (1.7) > Malta (2.8) > **Greenland (10.4** and a different but similar partially autonomous status from Denmark as the UK/Bermuda accounting split.) > > Obviously a good screen to prioritize looking in to them would be whether the police are routinely equipped for deadly force. Norways normal is about 0,6 per 100 000. The number listed seems to be Breiviks work. Who was not shot btw. Anyhow, Norway seems to have one deadly shooting by police every few years. Iceland has one. In total through the countrys history. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-other-wealthy-developed-nations-have-the-level-of-police-violence-in-the-us/717153/80 "2015-04-13T12:52:32Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > And, if we look at Ireland in its entirety, The Irish have proven to be vastly more violent than the USA. I’d like to see a cite for this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-other-wealthy-developed-nations-have-the-level-of-police-violence-in-the-us/717153.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-any-other-wealthy-developed-nations-have-the-level-of-police-violence-in-the-us/717153.md?page=5)