Do any other wealthy, developed nations have the level of police violence in the US

[DinoR]

Thanks Andy for getting two of my big early thoughts about making sure we compare per capita and looking at police killing against a societal propensity to use violence. It does make some sense to consider police propensity to kill against their society’s use of deadly force. Societal use of deadly force seems like a reasonable proxy for how often the police are justified in using it themselves when dealing with their citizens. I’m going to use overall homicide rates instead of just gun homicides. There’s some value judgement there on whether certain kinds of deadly force being used against you are more appropriate to respond to with deadly force. That argument is more appropriate for another forum IMO. As a proxy both have issues. Especially when we are comparing across cultures where citizen gun ownership is vastly different. I chose one to not discount non-gun forms of threatening law enforcement with deadly force.

Let’s consider Canada. It was in the OP and is the least violent of the US’s two bordering nations… In 2014 they had 15 police homicides in a population of 35.3 million - .043 police homicides per 100k. The US had a population of 318.8 million and …various estimates of police homicides. At the 1000 in the OP it works out to .314 police homicides per 100k. Using the economist 458 and the upthread 1,400 as more extreme estimates we get .144- .439 police homicides per 100k. At the OPs’ 1000 estimate the rate is .314 / 100k. Comparing the rates you are between 3.3 - 10.2 times as likely to be killed by police in the US as you are by Canadian police. The OP 1000 estimate gives a 7.3 times greater likelihood.

We still haven’t looked at our proxy for justification though. Let’s useUN Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) data on homicides published in 2013. Using 2007 - 2012 (the six years listed) Canada has an homicide rate of 1.7 per 100k against the US 5.0 per 100k in the six year average. That’s a justification proxy multiplier of 2.94 to the Canadian rates for a direct comparison that includes both population and the society propensity to use deadly force. I’ll call it the “trigger happiness score.”

Trigger happiness scores for comparison:
Canada- .126
US range of .144 - .439
UK: .008 (Math omitted; based on 1 police homicide in 2014 and a 5 year 2007-2011 rolling homicide rate since UNODC doesn’t include 2012 data. )

The US officer is 14- 248% more likely to kill than the Canadian officer controlling for similar situations through the homicide rate. It’s either a big difference or a pretty small one. A UK officer is only likely to kill 6% of the time that a Canadian officer does with the adjustment for circumstances. Colloquially Duddley Do-right is much, much closer to Barney Fife than Bobby.

A quick review ofGNI per capita(at PPP) lists for the top 50 countries and comparing their most recent homicide rates to Canada’s most recent gives us some potential candidates to consider. That’s if someone else wants to rundown their police homicide data. Most recent societal homicide annual rate in parentheses and bolded items have a higher homicide rate that the US:
The Bahamas (26.1 !!!)
Norway (2.2)
Bermuda (10.8)(British overseas territory who’s GNI/homicide numbers aren’t included in the UK but it’s completely independent either)
Belgium ( 1.6)
Estonia (5.0)
Lithuania (6.7)
Finland (1.6)
Greece (1.7)
Malta (2.8)
Greenland (10.4 and a different but similar partially autonomous status from Denmark as the UK/Bermuda accounting split.)

Obviously a good screen to prioritize looking in to them would be whether the police are routinely equipped for deadly force.

[Orwell]

@bob_2

The impression I get, is that police killings and by implication the police themselves, are openly racist in the USA while most in South Africa are not. It is significant that in SA only 10% of officers on the street are white.

I don’t think you can make the assumption or inference that police are racist. The fact that more blacks get shot than whites may be a byproduct of crimes committed by and police interaction with blacks. You also have the fact that when a black person is shot by a white (or hispanic or asian) cop, it makes front page, national (and international, apparently) news, while the inverse isn’t true.

By the way, I’m in no way making excuses for cops. I think it’s obvious they are poorly trained, too quick to shoot and have an us vs. them attitude. I’m not convinced, however, that race plays as much a part as protestors and media are trying to establish. I think people of all races are in danger from overzealous and antsy cops.

[Orwell]

@Nava

Other factors are the way police view themselves in relationship to the people they are supposed to guard and protect, and the way the police is viewed by people. In most other developed nations, cops are expected to be polite in their interaction with the general public. If they are asking the neighbors for information, they are expected to say “please” and “thank you”, not shove their badges into people’s faces.

I’m going to stay away from the gun issue, but I agree with this. I think anyone in the US can plainly see how police have increasingly adopted a divisive and antagonistic attitude towards the rest of us.

[Shodan]

@Orwell

I think anyone in the US can plainly see how police have increasingly adopted a divisive and antagonistic attitude towards the rest of us.

Since this is GQ, perhaps you could provide a cite that shows this clearly.

Regards,
Shodan

[Orwell]

@Shodan

Since this is GQ, perhaps you could provide a cite that shows this clearly.

Regards,
Shodan

Well, for starters, the number of police killed in the line of duty has been on a long downward trend, while the number of people killed by police has been steady or perhaps rising, depending on what statistics you want to look at.

Number Of Officers Killed In The Line Of Duty Drops To 50-Year Low While...

This statistical evidence suggests being a cop is safer than its been since the days of Sheriff Andy Griffith. Back in 2007, the FBI put the number of justifiable homicides committed by officers in the line of duty at 391. That count only includes homicides that occurred during the commission of a felony. This total doesn’t include justifiable homicides committed by police officers against people not committing felonies and also doesn’t include homicides found to be not justifiable. But still, this severe undercount far outpaces the number of cops killed by civilians.

Police work is statistically safer than being a roofer, logger, commercial fisherman, farmer or many other professions. America's 10 Deadliest Jobs

Look at how cops now handle underage drinking. When I was a teenager, the cops came and poured the beer on the ground, or took it with them. Nobody got written up or arrested. Now, the cops come and arrest everyone in sight. This is one of the earlier interactions many people have with the police, and it is far more antagonistic than it was 20 or 30 years ago. And no, I’m not providing a cite. Ask any parent with kids of a certain age.

[Shodan]

@Orwell

Well, for starters, the number of police killed in the line of duty has been on a long downward trend, while the number of people killed by police has been steady or perhaps rising, depending on what statistics you want to look at.

Number Of Officers Killed In The Line Of Duty Drops To 50-Year Low While Number Of Citizens Killed By Cops Remains Unchanged | Techdirt

Police work is statistically safer than being a roofer, logger, commercial fisherman, farmer or many other professions. America's 10 Deadliest Jobs

Look at how cops now handle underage drinking. When I was a teenager, the cops came and poured the beer on the ground, or took it with them. Nobody got written up or arrested. Now, the cops come and arrest everyone in sight. This is one of the earlier interactions many people have with the police, and it is far more antagonistic than it was 20 or 30 years ago. And no, I’m not providing a cite. Ask any parent with kids of a certain age.

Perhaps you could provide a cite showing “how police have increasingly adopted a divisive and antagonistic attitude towards the rest of us”.

Regards,
Shodan

[Blue_Blistering_Barnacle]

@Orwell

…elided…

Look at how cops now handle underage drinking. When I was a teenager, the cops came and poured the beer on the ground, or took it with them. Nobody got written up or arrested. Now, the cops come and arrest everyone in sight. This is one of the earlier interactions many people have with the police, and it is far more antagonistic than it was 20 or 30 years ago. And no, I’m not providing a cite. Ask any parent with kids of a certain age.

IMHO…

I would argue that society has asked this of them.

Just another example of zero tolerance policies that look very good on paper, but have distressing downstream ramifications.

[Grey]

@The_Joker_and_the_Thief

You didn’t actually click the link, did you?

It goes to a Wikipedia page that documents all known police killings regardless of justification or lack thereof. I’m aware that the list of justifiable police homicides is a subset of all police homicides.

I finally went to your link - I am deeply underwhelmed.

2015 and 2014 have none listed while 2013 and 2012 reference a single instance each. When it does mention numbers it simply refers back to the FBI Justified Killing yearly average of 400. Which the FBI states is incomplete and requires voluntary submission by police departments.

Now I may not have read it correctly or skimmed it too quickly - let me know where I missed anything specific.

As for the variously listed crowd sourced numbers those should be regarded as dubious as well. The Cato Institute’s data is “pulled from the National Police Misconduct News Feed on Twitter”.

Twitter. Shoot me.

[JustinC]

As the OP states ‘violence’ and not ‘shooting to death’ I think it’s okay to post these links of Police violence/brutality/force/actions (I don’t know what they call it).

These types of images seem to crop up on a daily basis, for US cops. Maybe they do for other countries as well, I don’t know. It seems the message is ‘Don’t Run’, ‘Don’t Misbehave’ and ‘Don’t Break the Law’. I get the last two, but the first seems to be self-defeating (or perpetuating?).

I say ‘The Message’ but all we’re seeing is a message from some nasty, violent people - not the thousands of male and female cops that put their life on the line every day and believe they are Protecting and Serving. Damn 24hr news cycles.

[Blue_Blistering_Barnacle]

@Claverhouse

I’m not that interested in gun reform; even if I didn’t admire the American freedom with guns ( although not the gun obsession ), these devolve to the usual pattern: gun nuts sink to their knees weeping: “Mah babies !” – “Ah love guns passing the love of women !”, whilst the gun-grabbers scowl and pronounce their enemies evil, and a lot of American-bashing happens to the enjoyment of all. Guns aren’t the problem.
Cops with guns are part of the problem though. I may suggest because it becomes the easy default facing alarming situations. Wikipedia has monthly reports on killings by police in the USA. let’s only look at January 2015.

A few excerpts since it would be tiresome to examine all 41 presented ( guess ).

Four of each where shooting seems reasonable; dubious; nutcase; according to my reading:

**
Bang To Rights**
Omaha : Omaha police responded to Terry’s residence after she had allegedly assaulted several people, including two of her children. Terry, wielding several knives, lunged at an officer on her front porch and then threw another knife at the officer before being shot multiple times. Terry later died on January 29, 2015, at Nebraska Medical Center.
California : Police responded to a family disturbance. Nuu struck a police dog with a hammer and reportedly moved to strike the K9 handler when police opened fire. Nuu died in hospital
New Mexico : Okeefe, suspected of criminal activity and wearing body armor, was shot and killed after running from and shooting at police officers
California : (Drunk & Disorderly) (Domestic Disturbance) Brandishing a knife and charging at a police officer, Ceja was shot multiple times by the officer. Ceja was drunk and was causing a disturbance at his home which prompted relatives to call police on him.
**
Woodman, Spare That Tree !**
Arizona : (Police Surveillance) A twenty-five (or 26)-year-old man was shot inside a car after exiting a motel and “began ramming the occupied police vehicle” with the his (stolen) vehicle. He was pronounced dead at the scene.
Montana : Marshall, wanted on a felony warrant, was spotted outside a hospital. Six police responded and attempted to apprehend him. Police reported that he ran, fell, and a gun he was carrying discharged through the window of the clinic. Marshall reportedly tried to clear the gun while on the ground, at which point all six officers fired, killing him.
Arizona : (Police surveillance) Carr, unknowingly under police surveillance as part of an investigation into a credit card fraud ring, had his vehicle surrounded and blocked in by unmarked police cars. He rammed a police car and was shot by undercover police.
Arizona : (Mental Patient) While responding to a 911 hang-up call, police officers shot Guillory after he pointed a gun at them. Guillory was a combat veteran who had been a diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder.
Please Turn in Your Gun At The Desk
Texas : (Mental Patient) Coignard, a minor with a history of mental illness, walked into a police station lobby and used a lobby phone to request assistance from a police officer. She had the words “I have a gun” written on her hand and threatened police with a knife. After a Taser apparently had no effect, she was shot four times in the trunk and extremities.
California : (Mental Patient) (Suicide by Cop) Hoffman attracted police attention by being in a parking lot reserved for law enforcement officers near the Mission police station. Hoffman drew a replica airsoft handgun from his waistband in the presence of responding officers, two of whom fired five times each, hitting Hoffman a total of three times. Police found an apologetic suicide note on Hoffman’s cell phone.
Ohio : (Police Action) At Port Columbus International Airport, Abdul-Rasheed was attempting to use a woman’s identity to buy a plane ticket and was confronted by police. He then took out a knife and lunged at them. He was shot by one officer.
Kansas : (Drunk & Disorderly) In 911 calls placed by his aunt, Quintero was said to have been possibly drunk or high and threatening his family with a knife. Police arriving at the scene found him and another family member in an SUV. After exiting the vehicle, he behaved belligerently and verbally threatened the officers. When he reportedly reached into his waistband he was Tasered, and then shot. He later died in the hospital. No weapon was recovered.
And this is just January.

---

I am disappointed in Texas. Kristiana Coignard probably was annoying, but even I could talk down a 17-yr-old girl without plugging her. Knife or not.
So from those 12 fairly random examples probably there was no reason to liquidate them as if one was part of Lepke’s mob. And I am saying I’m not blaming the police in all cases, America is a scary place.

But, it seems it may be more a matter of uniform national police training needed, veering officers to using their pieces as a matter of last resort and not blankly shooting off willy-nilly when they see a black shadow.

I am not a cop, and I agree with those upthread who have said that annoying a policeman should not warrant a summary death penalty.

I guess you’re not looking for someonne to nitpick your classification assignements, but (trying to look at the events from the officer’s point of view, at the time of the event) I find it hard to distinguish between many of the cases in each of your categories.

"**
Bang To Rights**

California : (Drunk & Disorderly) (Domestic Disturbance) Brandishing a knife and charging at a police officer, Ceja was shot multiple times by the officer. Ceja was drunk and was causing a disturbance at his home which prompted relatives to call police on him."

sounds a lot like…

"Please Turn in Your Gun At The Desk

Ohio : (Police Action) At Port Columbus International Airport, Abdul-Rasheed was attempting to use a woman’s identity to buy a plane ticket and was confronted by police. He then took out a knife and lunged at them. He was shot by one officer."
In "Woodman, Spare That Tree !, you describe

a) two cases of people usng cars as weapons (intentionally ramming police cars),

b) one case of a guy with a gun (already having fired through a neaby window, albeit probably accidentally) which I think was getting ready to use, if I understand the wording (“Marshall reportedly tried to clear the gun while on the ground…”), and

c) one case of a guy who knows how to use guns pointing them at the police.
While I wish the police would be more stringent about the use of deadly force, these four cases do sound to me like dangerous situations.

[Spiny_Norman]

@Novelty_Bobble

There is nothing stopping the criminally minded in the UK from acquiring an illegal gun other than scarcity and the expense that comes with that.

And the risk, when going about one’s criminal everyday. Carrying around an object that will immediately lead to police being alerted and pointed questions being asked is counterproductive for a smart criminal. Plus, of course, that getting a firearm means that there’s at least one more person - who may or may not be smart enough to remain out of the authorities’ reach - who can finger you.

From a cost/benefit point of view, there’s little call for a criminal to arm himself.

[Claverhouse]

Ceja had already allegedly threatened other people and then allegedly charged the officer with a knife. Therefore the officer was in immediate danger.

Abdul-Rasheed allegedly lunged with a knife, but was ( from that statement ) standing. Plus they had good reason to think him mentally ill ( using a woman’s identity at an airport ). It seems likely they could have dodged the knife ( as happens many times ) and disarmed him through negotiation.

The chaps allegedly using their cars as weapons — the original blunt instrument — ramming cars, were inside the cars and unable to directly threaten anyone except with the cars. Apart from the fact no mention is made of them attempting to drive away the police could have blown the tyres out etc. etc., or waited or done a few other things than blasting the drivers like Bonnie and Clyde.
The veteran with PTS, may have known how to use arms, but pointing a gun at people is not necessarily a reason for shooting the gun user. Had he discharged the gun, maybe.
In the Montana case, someone who’s on the ground, scrabbling for his dropped gun ( if that was the case ? ) need not be shot by 6 cops at once. Quite possibly one could have kicked the gun away.
If this seems arm-chair quarterbacking, in most civilized jurisdictions police don’t have guns to hand and therefore deal with these situations without killing. Because they have to. And there aren’t a lot more dead cops in these other countries.

[Teuton]

@Claverhouse

The veteran with PTS, may have known how to use arms, but pointing a gun at people is not necessarily a reason for shooting the gun user. Had he discharged the gun, maybe.

Yeah… I kinda think it is. I’m in the UK, and I think that in that circumstance, if armed police were around, they would have shot the guy.

[Claverhouse]

• His rifle held aloft, a teenage gunman takes aim at armed police officers, sparking a major firearms incident on a Scottish island.

Samuel Barlow was seconds away from being shot by specially-trained firearms officers as he roamed around Shetland Mainland, brandishing his weapon as residents locked their doors.

Armed police almost opened fire at the 16-year-old as he repeatedly pointed his rifle at officers during the stand-off in September.

After pacing around Shetland Mainland with his rifle, Samuel Barlow repeatedly pointed his weapon at armed police

But a court heard how it was only the professionalism and courage of officers - who initially had no idea what type of gun Barlow was wielding - which prevented Barlow being shot dead.

…

Two police officers, alerted by concerned islanders, were unable to approach Barlow and had to take refuge behind a fire station building as he took aim at them.

After taking to the hills, Barlow appeared in the Westerloch area of Lerwick, the main town, later the same afternoon.

He walked through several people’s gardens, threatened locals and aimed his rifle at police officers who were trying to negotiate a peaceful solution to the stand-off.
…

At that stage, police did not know who they were dealing with and with what type of weapon Barlow was carrying, the court heard.

Mr Mackenzie said there had been a number of occasions where officers had to decide whether to fire, he added.

Unhappy with the police negotiators, Barlow then moved out of view again. Officers decided to “move beyond containment” and make “an aggressive approach towards him”.

Mr Mackenzie said: "This was a very dangerous situation police officers were in. At the very end, only as the accused was restrained, it was confirmed he had only an air rifle.

“The accused owes the officers a debt of gratitude for their professionalism and indeed their courage. It was very close to a fatal outcome.”

At the hearing Barlow – who was described as an inmate of Polmont Young Offenders’ Institution, near Falkirk, Stirlingshire – admitted four charges of assault and one of abusive and threatening behaviour. *

…
*Sheriff Philip Mann said he had no other option than to keep Barlow in custody and warned him that a custodial sentence was very much a possibility. *

Telegraph 11 December 2014

[orcenio]

@Nava

It is not the amount of weapons. It is (partly) the way weapons are viewed. After all, most Swiss males between 18 and 55 have one or more guns at home and it isn’t exactly the murder capital of the world.

In most other developed countries, a gun is a dangerous tool. It is used:

• by hunters/farmers to kill animals,
• by sportsment for enjoyment,
• by police/army in their jobs,
• by criminals.

It is not something that represents your freedoms, your standing as a citizen - or your manhood. For many Americans, it is one or the other of these.

I lean towards this, there’s something very culturally… dysfunctional about how Americans view guns and gun culture. I don’t know exactly how to put it.

It’s a mixture of
[ul]
[li]the prevalence of these highly lethal weapons and the public acceptance that comes with familiarity; [/li][li]the **entitlement **that American gun owners have that really doesn’t exist anywhere else in the western world; [/li][li]the unquestioned righteousness of vigilantism that exists (I’ll never understand the unquestioned public support for psycho “make my day” laws); [/li][li]and the **pugnacity **that comes with having a concealed/loaded weapon (and the above mixture of feelings).[/li][/ul]

[Lightnin]

@Shodan

Since this is GQ, perhaps you could provide a cite that shows this clearly.

It’s not often one can see a sea lion in the wild.

[Wesley_Clark]

@Claverhouse

If this seems arm-chair quarterbacking, in most civilized jurisdictions police don’t have guns to hand and therefore deal with these situations without killing. Because they have to. And there aren’t a lot more dead cops in these other countries.

Street cops in Canada & Germany have guns, as do UK backup cops.

[Claverhouse]

Certainly — and that’s fine, I’m not per se against police having guns, however unnecessary — but they don’t kill with them one hundredth times as much.
2015 is unfinished, but Germans have killed 1 bloke; 1 in 2013, 4 in 2012.
Brits 1 a year the last 5 years, but 3 in 2009
Canada: usually under 10, but in 2014 16.
Of course these statistics are incomplete, but so are the US ones.

[Teuton]

@Claverhouse

Samuel Barlow was seconds away from being shot by specially-trained firearms officers as he roamed around Shetland Mainland, brandishing his weapon as residents locked their doors.

Ok, fair enough.

Perhaps it is just that difference in attitude and training - the difference between “Ok, he’s got a gun, perhaps we need to think about whether we shoot him.” and “He’s got a gun (or a weapon), we need to shoot him before he shoots us.”.

[Baron_Greenback]

@Teuton

Perhaps it is just that difference in attitude and training - the difference between “Ok, he’s got a gun, perhaps we need to think about whether we shoot him.” and “He’s got a gun (or a weapon), we need to shoot him before he shoots us.”.

Or maybe the paperwork for a shooting incident in the UK is massively more onerous.