Do Arabs have a different concept of "corruption"?

England didn’t test a nuclear weapon till 1952. France till 1960. Neither had large stocks of deliverable nuclear munitions till . . . any time, really. Nor could any combination of Europeans repel a ground assault without the American bases in Germany et al.

Just the amount of money every Western European country saved by not having to develop its own carrier fleet, missle stock, massive mobile armor, etc., and instead hitchhiking on the U.S. defense establishment, shows the clear value-for-money of their alliances with the U.S.

**Huerta **already addressed this factually incorrect claim. The US and the Soviets were the sole nuclear powers for several years.

So, it’s your claim that the US was trying to encourage a war in Europe after WWII? That’s an interesting opinion, but I’d like to see that backed up with some facts.

Apparently you’ve been riding the Newt Grinnich train, both France and GB had nuclear capability (a carrier fleet for a mainland war does marvels for your strategic credibility btw). Basically the Soviet Union never manifested a will to take over Western Europe (ever without going to war, they could have used the huge influence Communist parties had in Western Europe. They never did).
Plus the fact that both France and GB have been spending a lot on their military budgets, placing them in the top ten military investers, if not top five.

If really their plan was to have courageous Uncle Sam taking up their slack, they sure didnt translate that in their budget. And why would France have asked Nato forces to shut off their bases and move out of the country?

Because Charles de Gaulle was a dick.

…ANYway…back to the OP…

The image I was given in comparing your generic “Arab” to folks in the US is one of circles. To an Arab, they see them self as first part of a family, then as part of an extended family, then as part of a (perhaps) tribe, then people, etc. etc. out to citizen of a country. So, in any conflict between one circle and another circle, the closer circle always wins. From this you can see that country (laws) is kinda way out there, while family is always first and foremost.

We in America talk about family but we also strongly respect laws (country). Some folks quibble about which law giver should be primary (local vs federal), but in general our culture follows the law. Our circles are less strict, and while family may be important, it ain’t nothin’ like how these other people deal with it.

As an example - the whole discussion of how women are treated is wrapped into this. In the US if a husband mistreats a wife we invoke the law. In other parts of the world how a husband treats a wife is a family matter. Full stop. See the difference?

You’re doing an incredible generalization of what are fairly different countries that have in common to speak some variants of the same language, usually have a common religion, and are all Third World countries. The place of clan/family ties as opposed to a more statelike mentality (that is you’re here to serve the collective as opposed to your own family/ clan members) vary considerably between Arab countries. I think that sadly you’ll find the exact same kind of problems in most Third World countries, Arab/Muslim/Middle Eastern or not.

Correct. In Nigeria, the Christians are the worst for corruption and the Muslims seemingly much better. In So. America and Mexico, everyone’s nominally Catholic, and (Uruguay and Chile aside, suggests the map) completely corrupt. India’s full of corrupt Hindus. Race, ethnicity, religion don’t explain it. Democracy is no cure either (it is probably close to a necessary, but hardly a sufficient, pre-condition for non-corruption – I’m looking at you, Italy, Greece, and India). Again, non-corruption by the definition we here mean is a historical anomaly pretty much only even ever aspired to by the cultures of N.W. Europe.

An interesting subject, but what a screwed up article. I’m not even sure what to make of an article where the author rambles on about Arabs but himself mentions his sources aren’t Arab and rambles on about non-Arab countries…

In any event, I recently had an interesting conversation with businessmen from the continent (Africa), who talked about clans and corruption. His observation, and it struck me as quite sharp, was led in a system where abstract rule of law does not obtain, for protection one seeks support in relationships to generate that support for protection from one’s clan, meaning not simply blood relatives but the those tied to you by some reciprocal relationship.

He observed that this is the default case for humans. It was his observation that corruption in African countries comes very much from this. The state cannot be trusted equal protection under the law, and thus a vicious circle arises, corruption is simply favours to obtain protection, and an expansion of relationship based “business” on a grander scale.

I think this is largely correct, I’m sure there other factors involved and that this is an oversimplification, but at its root I think it is correct. I think also that the observations above that the current modern Western (American and Northern European?) values relative to corruption are new (even in N. Europe & N. America). I appreciated the looking to Greece remark. It strikes me that the OP and similar comments are terribly naive.

That being said, I do think that it is good to strive for these values they are objectively better. But when one’s working, as I do, in places like SS Africa, being judgemental about the habits it is not a good idea. It is difficult to change the overall environment, certainly Italy and Greece are examples of environments that have not changed like they should. Bloody Greece is as bad as some of the better African countries in my opinion.

As an aside, from direct experience I agree with Huerta, regarding Nigerians. I’m not sure why it plays out like that, maybe something about Yorubu or Igbo culture, I have no idea… Maybe northern Nigerians feel they get better protection from the state?

Again, there are sociological studies of cultural differences and similarities between countries, and there is certainly a great deal of variance between countries. I strongly recommend the Trompenaars’ book, or Geert Hofstede’s surveys.

Let’s not forget a culture of corruption is hardly unique to the Middle East, and it’s far from unknown in many cities in the USA.

In Chicago, just to use one example, most citizens not only expect and tolerate a certain amount of corruption, they even find it a bit cute… so long as the official with his hand in the cookie jar is actually delivering the goods. That is, Chicagoans generally don’t mind if, say, the sanitation commissioner is crooked, just so long as the trash actually does get picked up and the snow gets shoveled every winter.

In the same way, many an Arab is perfectly okay with greasing a local big shot’s palm, just as long as the big shot then follows through on what was promised.

As others have noted, most of the world does not follow Western society’s definition of corruption. Many places consider nepotism and cronyism the ‘proper’ thing to do. As stated in the OP, to not share is considered more shameful. And bringing shame on one’s family trumps any feeling of guilt in not following the ‘law’.

Speaking with roommates and friends from the Middle East, South Asia and China, three things I have noticed are that arm’s length transactions are not just a foreign concept, but almost alien or inhuman to them. The purpose of a deal is supposed to enrich them, their family and their friends, which includes giving them preferential treatment. They also have very different views of conflicts of interests. They are far more likely to deal with a cousin’s company rather than a independent third party. Relationships matter more than independence. Many businesses are also family-owned and so are not concerned with audits or other third-party verification.

The last bit I heard was a differentiation between ‘benign’ corruption and ‘malevolent’ corruption. In India, paying bribes is commonplace, and a cost of doing business, but generally no one is forced to pay it. The example my friend used was paying to get a telephone installed. If one pays the ‘extra fee’, they can get a phone in a few days. If they do not, they sit on the waiting list for a few months. Nepotism and cronyism tend to fall in this category also. We called this ‘benign’ corruption since it is mostly just about money and relationships.

Malevolent corruption is when someones life or livelihood is endangered. Threatening someones life or family or property unless they do as they are told - basic extortion except its by the government and not the mafia. I was told that this is very rare except in purely lawless areas such as slums and other hellholes where no ‘honest’ cop would risk their life. I’ve been told that in certain parts of Mumbai, the last people you would want to call are the police. Paying bribes is the more common method of advancement, not taking a civil service exam, which they then recoup by taking bribes from the populace.

I honestly cannot say which system is better though - the Western view of the law often leads to bureaucratization and alienation - nameless clerks that refuse to budge an inch, no matter how senseless the policy or regulation, but creates a consistency which is beneficial for long-term planning. The Asian* view creates a less active civil society, but have very strong families, which are far greater than the nuclear families of the West. The way it was put to me was that if you cannot rely on your family, why the hell would you rely on the government, as well as the fact that most families are far older than the current regimes in most of those places. If one is in trouble, a person relies upon their family contacts. Their first phone call will be to the family patriarch (or matriarch in a few cases), not legal counsel. Forget about trusting a court-appointed lawyer, no matter how well qualified they may be. They would rather call cousin ‘Vinny.’

There may be some happy medium between the two, but I am not sure what it would look like. This is one of the areas where governance studies are trying to determine best practices that would transcend borders. I am not sure if it is possible.
*I call it the Asian view since it seems most prominent in Asia, but I see the same tendencies in Latin American and Mediterranean/Levantine cultures also.

I think here again the comments of my African business friend regarding the deep underlying why - re trust and protection are fundamental to understanding this in a fashion deeper than just culture.

The last bit I heard was a differentiation between ‘benign’ corruption and ‘malevolent’ corruption. In India, paying bribes is commonplace, and a cost of doing business, but generally no one is forced to pay it. The example my friend used was paying to get a telephone installed. If one pays the ‘extra fee’, they can get a phone in a few days. If they do not, they sit on the waiting list for a few months. Nepotism and cronyism tend to fall in this category also. We called this ‘benign’ corruption since it is mostly just about money and relationships.

Malevolent corruption is when someones life or livelihood is endangered. Threatening someones life or family or property unless they do as they are told - basic extortion except its by the government and not the mafia. I was told that this is very rare except in purely lawless areas such as slums and other hellholes where no ‘honest’ cop would risk their life. I’ve been told that in certain parts of Mumbai, the last people you would want to call are the police. Paying bribes is the more common method of advancement, not taking a civil service exam, which they then recoup by taking bribes from the populace.

The Western manner is in the long run vastly preferable as it allows a modicum of meritocracy - modicum - to emerge. As for the senseless of application, you bloody well get that with Indian or African bureaucrats, except that there is vast and unfair inconsistency based on relations…

The age of the regime isn’t the key point, the fact that equal protection does not obtain is.