# Do artists ever really change the course of events outside the arts?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-artists-ever-really-change-the-course-of-events-outside-the-arts/674693
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [November 24, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-artists-ever-really-change-the-course-of-events-outside-the-arts/674693 "2013-11-24T19:13:57Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [November 24, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-artists-ever-really-change-the-course-of-events-outside-the-arts/674693/1 "2013-11-24T19:13:57Z")
It is often assumed so – as Lincoln said the Harriet Beecher Stowe, “So you’re the little woman who made the little book that made this great war!” – but I’m skeptical. E.g., would the course of non-musical history really be any different if the Beatles had never existed? I rather think the music of the '60s, to the extent it had any social or political relevance at all, was an effect of the troubled times rather than a cause. And Stowe did not create the abolitionist movement, she only gave it a voice, but it had many other voices.
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### Author:  [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)
#### Post date: [November 24, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-artists-ever-really-change-the-course-of-events-outside-the-arts/674693/2 "2013-11-24T19:47:35Z")
Every successful piece of artful advertising represents a micro-example of artists changing the course of events (and if advertising weren’t ever successful, there wouldn’t be such massive amounts of money spent on it).
And if art can influence individual behavior in small ways, I’d be inclined to believe that it can influence the world in larger ways, either directly or by all those small influences adding up.
In particular, one thing that novels, movies, TV shows, etc. are good at is making things personal, putting a face on what would otherwise have been an abstract issue, and thereby make people aware of, and make them care about, something because they’ve “seen” it happen to someone they “know.”
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [November 24, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-artists-ever-really-change-the-course-of-events-outside-the-arts/674693/3 "2013-11-24T19:58:03Z")
Spinoff from [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=708469), BTW.
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### Author:  [@computergeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/computergeek)
#### Post date: [November 24, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-artists-ever-really-change-the-course-of-events-outside-the-arts/674693/4 "2013-11-24T20:56:51Z")
Artists against South African apartheid helped turn companies and countries against that policy.
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### Author:  [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)
#### Post date: [November 24, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-artists-ever-really-change-the-course-of-events-outside-the-arts/674693/5 "2013-11-24T21:02:50Z")
The CIA [seemed to think so](http://artsinsociety.com/the-latest-news/modern-art-was-cia-weapon).
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### Author:  [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)
#### Post date: [November 24, 2013, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-artists-ever-really-change-the-course-of-events-outside-the-arts/674693/6 "2013-11-24T21:15:11Z")
I like to think that certain parts of the world are much better off due to Bob Geldof and Bono’s work.
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### Author:  [@Toxgoddess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxgoddess)
#### Post date: [November 24, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-artists-ever-really-change-the-course-of-events-outside-the-arts/674693/7 "2013-11-24T21:21:13Z")
Upton Sinclair’s “The Jungle” is credited with starting the movement to institute standards in the food processing industries and the eventual creation of the FDA.
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### Author:  [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)
#### Post date: [November 24, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-artists-ever-really-change-the-course-of-events-outside-the-arts/674693/8 "2013-11-24T21:52:56Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#):
>
> I like to think that certain parts of the world are much better off due to Bob Geldof and Bono’s work.
Notably the parts of it that don’t give Bono’s music any airplay :).
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [November 24, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-artists-ever-really-change-the-course-of-events-outside-the-arts/674693/9 "2013-11-24T21:58:53Z")
> [@Toxgoddess](#):
>
> Upton Sinclair’s “The Jungle” is credited with starting the movement to institute standards in the food processing industries and the eventual creation of the FDA.
[Not quite what Sinclair intended, however.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle#Reception)
> [@](#):
>
> Upton Sinclair intended to expose “the inferno of exploitation [of the typical American factory worker at the turn of the 20th Century],”[7] but the reading public fixed on food safety as the novel’s most pressing issue. Sinclair admitted his celebrity arose, “not because the public cared anything about the workers, but simply because the public did not want to eat tubercular beef”.[7] Some critics have attributed this response to the characters, most of whom, including Rudkus, have unpleasant qualities. The last section, concerning a socialist rally Rudkus attended, was later disavowed by Sinclair. But his description of the meatpacking contamination captured readers’ attention.[8]
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [November 24, 2013, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-artists-ever-really-change-the-course-of-events-outside-the-arts/674693/10 "2013-11-24T22:22:57Z")
I don’t think artists can create a public movement out of nothing. But I think sometimes artists can take an idea that’s “in the air” and articulate it. And then this articulated message gives the idea much greater strength and can lead to a popular movement.
Stowe didn’t create the idea that slavery was wrong. But she made the idea clearer by putting a face on it.
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-artists-ever-really-change-the-course-of-events-outside-the-arts/674693/11 "2013-11-25T14:42:36Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#):
>
> I like to think that certain parts of the world are much better off due to Bob Geldof and Bono’s work.
It’s not clear Bob Geldof, noble though his intentions are, has much helped anyone.
Bono you can make a strong case for - but Bono hasn’t helped anyone because he recorded “Achtung Baby,” he helps people through his use of his celebrity and wealth to organize charitable efforts and influence politicians. Bono is of course a very extreme case - he is arguably the mot legitimately effective celebrity activist who ever lived. But the nature of his art is quite irrelevant. It wouldn’t matter what kind of music U2 made, or even if Bono had gotten rich and famous as an actor instead of as a musician.
Off topic: I’ll tell you, I heard Bono do an interview on some right wing radio show a number of years back, and that guy knew his shit. It was - this is no exaggeration - one of the best interview performances I have ever heard by anyone on any subject. He was in a semi-hostile environment in the sense of being in a right-wing, why-help-the-cullured-folks situation - although in fairness the host seemed pretty happy to meet Bono - and he absolutely nailed it and really spoke to his audience, eloquently and intelligently but speaking to what the likely listener would want to hear without patronizing or lying. I don’t remember his exact words but one of his central points was the notion of the USA as itself being a brand, and how helping Africa while heavily branding it as American would not only be of benefit to Africa, but also to America; he went on in some detail and I was just floored by his salesmanship, his passion, and his command of the subject. It has been commented upon many times that his grasp of the issues is very advanced, and he is noteworthy for consulting with economists from all sides of the political spectrum in an effort to ensure he isn’t blind to good arguments.
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### Author:  [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-artists-ever-really-change-the-course-of-events-outside-the-arts/674693/12 "2013-11-25T16:35:49Z")
I think everyone would agree Adoph Hitler influenced history.
Not everyone here knows Adoph was an artist:
> **[Paintings by Adolf Hitler](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paintings_by_Adolf_Hitler)**
>
> Adolf Hitler, dictator of the Third Reich of Germany from 1933 to 1945, was also a painter. He produced hundreds of works and sold his paintings and postcards to try to earn a living during his Vienna years (1908–1913). Despite little success professionally, he continued to paint throughout his life.
> A number of his paintings were recovered after the Second World War and have been sold at auction for tens of thousands of dollars. Others were seized by the United States Army and are still held ...
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-artists-ever-really-change-the-course-of-events-outside-the-arts/674693/13 "2013-11-25T16:53:33Z")
> [@PastTense](#):
>
> I think everyone would agree Adoph Hitler influenced history.
>
> Not everyone here knows Adoph was an artist:
> [Paintings by Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paintings_by_Adolf_Hitler)
“Adolf.” And, again, his influence over history had nothing to do with his artistic influence.
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### Author:  [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-artists-ever-really-change-the-course-of-events-outside-the-arts/674693/14 "2013-11-25T17:32:52Z")
Andy Warhol made canned soup popular with younger people.
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### Author:  [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-artists-ever-really-change-the-course-of-events-outside-the-arts/674693/15 "2013-11-25T17:45:14Z")
**The Water Babies** influenced anti-child labor (labour?) law in England: the year after it was published, chimney sweeps could be fined ten pounds for employing children (back when a maid’s annual wage was twenty pounds).
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### Author:  [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-artists-ever-really-change-the-course-of-events-outside-the-arts/674693/16 "2013-11-25T17:55:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> I don’t think artists can create a public movement out of nothing. But I think sometimes artists can take an idea that’s “in the air” and articulate it. And then this articulated message gives the idea much greater strength and can lead to a popular movement.
Yup. Society is complicated. Many things influence society. Art is one of those things.
If art was completely unimportant, freedom of artistic expression would not be worth fighting for.
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### Author:  [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-artists-ever-really-change-the-course-of-events-outside-the-arts/674693/17 "2013-11-25T17:56:44Z")
I think it’s a chicken and egg scenario. An idea embeds itself in an (occasionally crazy) head that is then regurgitated onto their medium of choice through the lens of their mind.
In my mind, this is not really all that different from how everything else relating to humanity arises:
Einstein didn’t make the Theory of General Relativity, but he did express ideas he had in a way that gained mass appeal (…to physicists, at least).
Edison didn’t invent electricity and even discredited aspects of it we require in it’s use, today (AC distribution and such).
Charles Darwin’s theories can be traced back to influences he had from his naturalist grandfather Erasmus.
We credit each of these men for their achievements, but it’s not so much the achievement that is meritorious, but the lens they gave to ideas that already existed.
Each man stands on the ideas of the men before them. In science, it can build things from simple electricity flowing to light bulbs into computers and smart phones. In art, it enriches those that appreciate the lens and feel resonance with the piece, be it music, painting, book, sculpture, or otherwise. Whether or not a piece of art is somehow influential depends, I think, on the number of people that can feel this resonance.
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### Author:  [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-artists-ever-really-change-the-course-of-events-outside-the-arts/674693/18 "2013-11-25T18:11:36Z")
> [@Kobal2](#):
>
> The CIA [seemed to think so](http://artsinsociety.com/the-latest-news/modern-art-was-cia-weapon).
You hardly have to look back fifty years to find examples - just last year we saw the release of Zero Dark Thirty, a movie made with the CIA’s assistance that coincidentally insinuated that the CIA’s campaign of torture helped capture Bin Laden rather than the resulting misinformation actively hindering the search.
Of course, if what the CIA believed was worth jack shit, they wouldn’t have needed the movie in the first place.
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2013, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-artists-ever-really-change-the-course-of-events-outside-the-arts/674693/19 "2013-11-25T18:33:08Z")
Punk drew a great deal of attention to the fact that young people in Britain in the seventies were really, really pissed off (and not terribly concerned about musicianship.)
> [@ITR\_champion](#):
>
> If art was completely unimportant, freedom of artistic expression would not be worth fighting for.
Sure it would. The whole point of art is that it has no subjective importance. Things which are functional are [not art](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ8xDia5RNY). You know, _art for its own sake_.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-artists-ever-really-change-the-course-of-events-outside-the-arts/674693/20 "2013-11-25T19:32:06Z")
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> “Adolf.” And, again, his influence over history had nothing to do with his artistic influence.
Well, I have read (in James Howard Kunstler’s _The City in Mind,_ chapter on Berlin) that Hitler’s whole public career was a kind of performance art. And it has been said of Franco that he was not really a fascist because he was “a cop, not an artist.”
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