# Do astrologers actually believe what they preach? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2008, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-astrologers-actually-believe-what-they-preach/433636 "2008-01-15T18:48:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-astrologers-actually-believe-what-they-preach/433636/301 "2008-01-22T22:07:46Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] Oh, and a _totally_ unrelated ‘technical’ question: what precisely _is_ the information required to do an astrological reading? Do you need the person’s name? Or would their precise birthdate and birthminute suffice? Do you need to know locale, time zone, area code, etc? [/QUOTE] Birthdate, time and location should be sufficient. Name and such are nice if you want to branch off into numerology and the like, but for strictly an astrological forecast they aren’t needed. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-astrologers-actually-believe-what-they-preach/433636/302 "2008-01-22T22:09:17Z")
Birthdate, time, location. There are reference books available (called “Time Changes in the USA”, IIRC) that record all of the local variations in Daylight Savings time, I would assume that such are available online now, but don’t actually know. And total precision in birth time is not that crucial, a minor difference in the ascendant sign is not that big a deal, unless the astrologer suffers from an overdose of Virgo, with its resultant nitpickitis. Birth time can be a bit tricky, of course, since people in birth rooms are rather busy, but anything within a few minutes is acceptable. (That is _my_ opinion, and not univesally accepted. Yet.) Local Mean Time is the desired fact, which varies according to whether you are east or west of the meridian for your time zone, but that is easily done. I am given to understand that the Dutch test, referenced above, is perfect in all respects and only an asshole would deny it. My mileage varies. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-astrologers-actually-believe-what-they-preach/433636/303 "2008-01-22T22:22:30Z")
[QUOTE=SparrowHawk] That’s the nature of the beast. It’s not science. It does work. We make it work because we make symbols and meaning. [/QUOTE] Yah, well, in this instance I believe we’re disagreeing as to what the phrase “it works” means regarding astrology. I never claimed or posited that it was ineffective as a springboard for navelgazing. I just have doubts that it can tell you anything that you don’t already know, or describe an individual with remarkable accuracy independent of the individual ‘inputing’ that information via non-astrological methods. **Antinor01** and **elucidator** , thanks for the dope about the input parameters for an astrological reading. Though, I gotta ask: > [@elucidator](#): > > (That is my opinion, and not univesally accepted. Yet.) “Yet”? Are you planning a coup? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-astrologers-actually-believe-what-they-preach/433636/304 "2008-01-23T00:17:35Z")
The astrological community will be my springboard to world domination. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-astrologers-actually-believe-what-they-preach/433636/305 "2008-01-23T00:29:10Z")
It may have been lost at the bottom right before the page transition, but I’d like to ask again: Suppose someone had been misled all his life as to the actual time and location of his birth and such things, but remains entirely unaware of this. Would you expect an astrological reading for such a person to be significantly less successful, by whatever the appropriate criteria are, than one for a person whose beliefs about his birth time, location, etc., are accurate? That is to say, if a sincere believer in astrology supplies, in good faith, erroneous information about their birth time and place, will their readings suffer for it? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-astrologers-actually-believe-what-they-preach/433636/306 "2008-01-23T00:39:14Z")
Examples of astrological readings: [One](http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/soulmatereadingexample.html) [Two](http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/spiritualpathreadingexample.html) [Three](http://www.secretcycles.com.au/sample2.htm) [Four](http://www.astrology.com/examples/new/1004/bt.html) ---
**Author:** ![SparrowHawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac8455/32.png) [@SparrowHawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SparrowHawk)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-astrologers-actually-believe-what-they-preach/433636/307 "2008-01-23T00:47:59Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] Yah, well, in this instance I believe we’re disagreeing as to what the phrase “it works” means regarding astrology. [/QUOTE] Yep, that’s one reason I mentioned dickering about wording. I guess I’m not True Believer, just a Sorta Believer. And I have broken **'Luc’s Law** , so I will undoubtedly be shot with the rest of you when he takes over. Though honestly, **'luc** , I found genuine and practical insight in my own chart, so I hope I may be forgiven if I do enough penance. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-astrologers-actually-believe-what-they-preach/433636/308 "2008-01-23T00:57:16Z")
[QUOTE=Indistinguishable] …That is to say, if a sincere believer in astrology supplies, in good faith, erroneous information about their birth time and place, will their readings suffer for it? [/QUOTE] I talked about this above, somewhere. Happened to me three or four times, all women, all trimmed a couple three years off their actual birth year as they didn’t realize the significance. The readings floundered immediately. I’d rather be waterboarded. But once the truth came out, we managed to get back on track. So, yeah. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-astrologers-actually-believe-what-they-preach/433636/309 "2008-01-23T01:04:07Z")
> [@glee](#): > > …I agree that certain things get harder if you don’t practice them. However I don’t understand why astrology is one of them… > [@Elucidator](#): > > Why wouldn’t it? Oh, it would if it were something you had to be smart, huh? Like maybe, oh, I don’t know…chess maybe? I mean, so long as any damn fool can do it, what difference does practice make, huh? > > Nureryev could still dance well into middle age. But he had the good sense not to do it in public. I don’t mean to put astrology down. I know little about it, which is why I’m asking for information. I assumed that you study some charts and make the reading from that. > [@glee](#): > > …For example, won’t two astrologers produce exactly the same results when given exactly the same information by the subject? > Does the reading vary over time?.. > [@Elucidator](#): > > Couldn’t tell you. Have never seen another work. But how did you learn to do it? Was there a single method, or are there schools of astrology? > [@glee](#): > > …1. I would appreciate a competent professional job. I could learn what a reading looks like. If it’s all you need, why the personal contact… > [@Elucidator](#): > > It matters, but not so much in this instance, its not a biggie. Basicly, I just don’t want to. Now it might be one of the coolest things to happen on the SDMB, outside of Scylla waterboarding himself, or it could be a fart Hindenburg. And aggravation, I don’t need. I am hoping you’ll change your mind. This is my chance to learn something, from someone who clearly believes and understands astrology. > [@glee](#): > > …Of course playing chess is more satisfying emotionally face-to-face, but I can still demonstrate my full skill over the Internet… > [@Elucidator](#): > > This is one hell of a straight line, you seem like a nice guy, so I’m gonna let it slide. This time. Again, I meant no offence. I meant that you can play chess for example at a distance. I assumed that you could do astrology readings likewise (because many astrologers advertise their services that way). > [@glee](#): > > I realise that this may bug you (sorry ), but the problem with saying that personal contact makes a difference is that there are people who are not genuine who could use the contact to make things up. You come across as sincere and I am hoping to learn something from you. > [@Elucidator](#): > > Sure there are. Why is that an issue for me? I got to prove I’m not one of them? Oh, fuck that. I just want to learn. An example of an astrologer I don’t wish to consult would be those who put short summaries in newspapers. > [@glee](#): > > …(We know that teachers / police / spouses can all ‘read’ people without having any training.)… > [@Elucidator](#): > > Dunno. Not sure about that one. What little I know about the cold read technique suggests it takes a lot of native talent and much practice. Besides, if I’m so good at it, howcome I sometimes lose at poker? I should have qualified that statement. :o But it is true that talking to someone face-to-face sometimes tells you something about them. > [@glee](#): > > …I joined this board for many reasons - one of them was to learn stuff. Having an astrologer talking to me is an opportunity. I don’t want to shrug - I want to see your side of things… > [@Elucidator](#): > > And you don’t? All I know about astrology is that there are daily readings in many newpapers, and that they are based on charts. Oh and [Jonathan Cainer](http://news.independent.co.uk/media/article340468.ece)earns about £2 million ($4 million) a year :eek: > [@glee](#): > > …OK, I agree that there is likely to be a hostile reception… > [@Elucidator](#): > > Ya think, maybe? Well obviously - but not from me. My thread on remote viewing proves that. > [@glee](#): > > How about this: > > - I start a new thread where you do a reading on me > - I state that no insults are allowed and get the Moderators to back me > - we analyse the results together > [@Elucidator](#): > > I appreciate it, but no. When I reflect on it, my Higher Power says “Are you out of your pea-pickin’ brain? Not just no, fuck no!” Tell you what: if some time passes and I think better of it, I’ll get back to you. > > (Maybe somebody else? I’m probably not the only. Likely the best, sure, but not the only…) As I said, I don’t know much about astrology. I would like to learn more. I appreciate you would normally charge a fee, but there have been loads of Dopers who have talked about their knowledge here for free (as I do with chess). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-astrologers-actually-believe-what-they-preach/433636/310 "2008-01-23T01:06:32Z")
[QUOTE=SparrowHawk] Yep, that’s one reason I mentioned dickering about wording. I guess I’m not True Believer, just a Sorta Believer. And I have broken **'Luc’s Law** , so I will undoubtedly be shot with the rest of you when he takes over. Though honestly, **'luc** , I found genuine and practical insight in my own chart, so I hope I may be forgiven if I do enough penance. [/QUOTE] I was teaching, I had students. You get to talk that way when you got students. I am fortunate in that my natural modesty keeps me in check. But, in my opinion, if you want to get serious about it, you’ve got to work for strangers. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-astrologers-actually-believe-what-they-preach/433636/311 "2008-01-23T01:08:59Z")
[QUOTE=SparrowHawk] … Yes, a reading can reveal information, the issue is the quality of that information. I don’t think it’s possible to get a “decent” (whatever that is - useful? meaningful? accurate?) reading without input from the subject. I would not call this cold/hot reading, because it wouldn’t involve intent to deceive, it would be a mutually agreed upon exploration. You may consider it cold/hot reading even without intent to deceive, and I won’t dispute with you over that opinion. There may be information in a reading done without input, but I would expect it to be, as you and others have charged, either too vague/contradictory to be useful, too general to be meaningful, and… I guess I reserve judgment on the source of any specific accuracies that might emerge. My tendency is to think they would be coincidence/luck, but some might be due to skilled experience in evaluating lots of different interactions. I see the primary value of the system in its structure and integration, not in magically producing information that would be otherwise hidden. That’s the nature of the beast. It’s not science. It does work. We make it work because we make symbols and meaning. [/QUOTE] Sparrowhawk, would you consider contributing to my proposed thread asking for an astrological reading? If you needed dialogue, we could do that by posting (a bit slowly, but at least you wouldn’t have to rush!) ---
**Author:** ![SparrowHawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac8455/32.png) [@SparrowHawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SparrowHawk)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-astrologers-actually-believe-what-they-preach/433636/312 "2008-01-23T01:27:41Z")
[QUOTE=glee] Sparrowhawk, would you consider contributing to my proposed thread asking for an astrological reading? If you needed dialogue, we could do that by posting (a bit slowly, but at least you wouldn’t have to rush!) [/QUOTE] And there’s **elucidator** just above telling me I have to deal with strangers if I want to get serious! Thing is, I don’t really want to get serious. I don’t think I have that level of confidence or knowlege, with the system or with myself. Still, I think I would find it a fascinating exercise, as long as it was undertaken with the full understanding that I have little clue what the fark I am doing. Is there some stated purpose to your thread? Because I’m not out to prove anything. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-astrologers-actually-believe-what-they-preach/433636/313 "2008-01-23T01:43:52Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] I am fortunate in that my natural modesty keeps me in check. [/QUOTE] I was just marveling at your modesty. You should be proud of it. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-astrologers-actually-believe-what-they-preach/433636/314 "2008-01-23T17:46:36Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] These “professional” astrologers? Does that include vile conmen who use the techniques of the cold read to fleece their gullible victims? Whats the metric here, you cashed a check, you’re in? How do you propose to test for competence in a subject for which you have utter contempt? [/QUOTE] Aye, there’s the rub, _Luc_. The only way we could possibly test for competence in astrology would be to give astrologers a test that has them draw a chart and then measures the accuracy of the chart. The problem is that the “vile conmen” and the “skilled astrologers” would score _exactly the same on the test_ (please see post #202). In hundreds of years that astrology has been practiced, no astrology seems to have ever devised a test that would separate the sheep from the goats, so to speak. I wonder why that is? Perhaps there is no difference between the sheep and the goats? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-astrologers-actually-believe-what-they-preach/433636/315 "2008-01-23T19:09:37Z")
[QUOTE=SparrowHawk] And there’s **elucidator** just above telling me I have to deal with strangers if I want to get serious! Thing is, I don’t really want to get serious. I don’t think I have that level of confidence or knowlege, with the system or with myself. Still, I think I would find it a fascinating exercise, as long as it was undertaken with the full understanding that I have little clue what the fark I am doing. Is there some stated purpose to your thread? Because I’m not out to prove anything. [/QUOTE] My purpose is to learn about astrology. Here is a subject which is strongly supported by many, hugely profitable for a few well-known astrologers ($4 million a year - leaders of countries don’t earn that much!) and yet never taught in any public school. I’d like to know (for example): - what things can astrology tell you? - how much information does an astrologer need? - how do astrologers learn to do it? - is there agreement between astrologers on what methods to use? - what does a reading look like? If things went well (and posters stayed polite), I would then be interested in seeing if the astrologers and I could agree some sort of test to see how well astrology performs in one case (I would offer myself as a subject in the thread.) ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-astrologers-actually-believe-what-they-preach/433636/316 "2008-01-23T19:20:55Z")
[QUOTE=glee] My purpose is to learn about astrology. Here is a subject which is strongly supported by many, hugely profitable for a few well-known astrologers ($4 million a year - leaders of countries don’t earn that much!) and yet never taught in any public school. I’d like to know (for example): - what things can astrology tell you? - how much information does an astrologer need? - how do astrologers learn to do it? - is there agreement between astrologers on what methods to use? - what does a reading look like? If things went well (and posters stayed polite), I would then be interested in seeing if the astrologers and I could agree some sort of test to see how well astrology performs in one case (I would offer myself as a subject in the thread.) [/QUOTE] I think the second, fourth, and fifth questions have been answered recently in this thread, and one can infer some things about the answer to the third question as well from **elucidator** ’s comments. We haven’t _quite_ reached agreement on the first question yet, though. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-astrologers-actually-believe-what-they-preach/433636/317 "2008-01-24T02:58:32Z")
> [@glee](#): > > I’d like to know (for example): > > - what things can astrology tell you? > - how much information does an astrologer need? > - how do astrologers learn to do it? > - is there agreement between astrologers on what methods to use? > - what does a reading look like? [QUOTE=begbert2] I think the second, fourth, and fifth questions have been answered recently in this thread, and one can infer some things about the answer to the third question as well from **elucidator** ’s comments. We haven’t _quite_ reached agreement on the first question yet, though. 🙂 [/QUOTE] Um, is the answer to the second question that you not only need the precise birthdate, but also to discuss things with the subject? And what was the answer to the fourth question? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-astrologers-actually-believe-what-they-preach/433636/318 "2008-01-24T03:06:06Z")
[QUOTE=glee] Um, is the answer to the second question that you not only need the precise birthdate, but also to discuss things with the subject? [/quote] Absolutely. [QUOTE=glee] And what was the answer to the fourth question? [/QUOTE] Absolutely not. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-astrologers-actually-believe-what-they-preach/433636/319 "2008-01-24T13:51:48Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] I think the second, fourth, and fifth questions have been answered recently in this thread, and one can infer some things about the answer to the third question as well from **elucidator** ’s comments. We haven’t _quite_ reached agreement on the first question yet, though. 🙂 [/QUOTE] Also we haven’t had the subject’s reaction to the reading (question 5). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-astrologers-actually-believe-what-they-preach/433636/320 "2008-01-24T14:20:32Z")
[QUOTE=glee] Also we haven’t had the subject’s reaction to the reading (question 5). [/QUOTE] I wouldn’t mind getting reactions to the four examples I gave in post #306. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-astrologers-actually-believe-what-they-preach/433636.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-astrologers-actually-believe-what-they-preach/433636.md?page=17)