# Do atheists join armies in the same numbers that believers do? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 4, 2008, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-atheists-join-armies-in-the-same-numbers-that-believers-do/443912 "2008-04-04T13:08:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-atheists-join-armies-in-the-same-numbers-that-believers-do/443912/1 "2008-04-04T13:08:34Z")
I don’t want to start a debate but I would be interested in seeing statistics that showed the religious breakdown of some modern volunteer armies and the religious breakdown of their societies. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-atheists-join-armies-in-the-same-numbers-that-believers-do/443912/2 "2008-04-04T13:11:06Z")
If they are conscripted there is not much choice I suppose. But I still don’t follow the question- are you asking about an army based on religion or an army based on national protection? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-atheists-join-armies-in-the-same-numbers-that-believers-do/443912/3 "2008-04-04T13:14:14Z")
[QUOTE=Cicero] If they are conscripted there is not much choice I suppose. But I still don’t follow the question- are you asking about an army based on religion or an army based on national protection? [/QUOTE] Ok maybe I didn’t phrase it clearly. Specifically in nations with volunteer armies (ie United States, UK and I’m sure there are others) do the religious beliefs of the national armies reflect the religious beliefs of the wider society or is there any disparity? I’m curious as to whether a belief in an afterlife or an eternal reward of some sort makes you more likely to put your neck on the line for your country or not. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-atheists-join-armies-in-the-same-numbers-that-believers-do/443912/4 "2008-04-04T13:19:46Z")
You can obtain the stats for the british military from here: [http://www.dasa.mod.uk/index.html](http://www.dasa.mod.uk/index.html) You should just be able to request them via the contact email. ETA: But, just because someone puts “Roman Catholic” on their application form doesn’t mean that it still applies. I have a feeling that the british army will be overwhelmingly CoE (at least according to the official stats, if not what actual soldiers believe). ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-atheists-join-armies-in-the-same-numbers-that-believers-do/443912/5 "2008-04-04T13:20:35Z")
I think you also need to clarify the times you talk about. The UK army was not a volunteer army during the Great War. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-atheists-join-armies-in-the-same-numbers-that-believers-do/443912/6 "2008-04-04T13:23:08Z")
If by “atheists” you mean “nonbelievers” it’s actually higher in the US military than it is in the general population according to the statistics I found. [General population](http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/04statab/pop.pdf), see page 55. 29,481/207.980, or around 14%. [Military population](http://www.prb.org/Source/ACF1396.pdf), see page 25. 21% atheist, 11% no reply. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-atheists-join-armies-in-the-same-numbers-that-believers-do/443912/7 "2008-04-04T13:23:09Z")
I’m looking for figures for contemporary volunteer armies. Thanks **Szlater** for the link. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-atheists-join-armies-in-the-same-numbers-that-believers-do/443912/8 "2008-04-04T13:46:17Z")
An anecdote, tho not really what you wanted. At one point my atheist son was considering applying to West Point. During a visit, our whole family was a tad surprised at the extent to which “participation in services” - if not any particular religion - was emphasized. I got the clear position that it would be uncomfortable going thru West Point as an atheist. And that was enough to help at least one atheist decide that Army was not the route for him. Also, I’ve heard/read more than once that there is a very strong christian aspect to large parts of current Army command. Sorry I don’t have any stats as you request. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-atheists-join-armies-in-the-same-numbers-that-believers-do/443912/9 "2008-04-04T13:53:49Z")
The same caveat you have when dealing with such issues,nominal indicated religious affliation dose not equate to belief, some atheists might select one particular one out of habit, or family tradition or because they follow that religions morality code, even with believers, the intensity of religious feeling or belief is variable. In militaries esp in countries that are religious as a rule like say the USA there would be a greater pressure to conform. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-atheists-join-armies-in-the-same-numbers-that-believers-do/443912/10 "2008-04-04T14:01:38Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] If by “atheists” you mean “nonbelievers” it’s actually higher in the US military than it is in the general population according to the statistics I found. [General population](http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/04statab/pop.pdf), see page 55. 29,481/207.980, or around 14%. [Military population](http://www.prb.org/Source/ACF1396.pdf), see page 25. 21% atheist, 11% no reply. [/QUOTE] Wow. Pretty much directly contradicts what I expected. ---
**Author:** ![Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harriet_the_Spry)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-atheists-join-armies-in-the-same-numbers-that-believers-do/443912/11 "2008-04-04T14:19:31Z")
That’s interesting. One thing to keep in mind is that some religions are very anti-war, for example Quakers being conscientious objectors in wartime. On the other hand, the comparison between the military and the general population is comparing a group with a larger proportion of young men to a group of males and females of all ages. That might account for the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-atheists-join-armies-in-the-same-numbers-that-believers-do/443912/12 "2008-04-04T14:29:14Z")
[QUOTE=Szlater] I have a feeling that the british army will be overwhelmingly CoE (at least according to the official stats, if not what actual soldiers believe). [/QUOTE] CoE tends to get used a lot in form filling as an easy option in the UK I recently filled in a visa application to Saudi (or rather the people who did it on my behalf) with “CoE” because “Godless, hellbound Atheist, or perhaps Agnostic, depending on your definition of…” would have meant no visa ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-atheists-join-armies-in-the-same-numbers-that-believers-do/443912/13 "2008-04-04T14:47:07Z")
[QUOTE=Harriet the Spry] the comparison between the military and the general population is comparing a group with a larger proportion of young men to a group of males and females of all ages. That might account for the difference. [/QUOTE] Yes, a really meaningful comparison would be males 18-40something, military vs civilian. My prejudice(?) is that our cuurent military by and large comes from parts of society that are more given to churchgoing, as well as more supportive of traditional roles and morés in general. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-atheists-join-armies-in-the-same-numbers-that-believers-do/443912/14 "2008-04-04T15:42:59Z")
> [@](#): > > If by “atheists” you mean “nonbelievers” it’s actually higher in the US military than it is in the general population according to the statistics I found. That surprises me. I was just reading an article (I believe it was in this week’s Newsweek) that said that many soldiers felt that evangelical Christianity was being given preferential treatment in the Army. It wasn’t just non-believers but also Christians of other denominations who were quoted. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-atheists-join-armies-in-the-same-numbers-that-believers-do/443912/15 "2008-04-04T15:58:29Z")
My experience in the Army (which is over 19 years) is that most soldiers use Sunday as a day to sleep in or recover from hangovers. My dogtags say Catholic but I attend church for weddings and funerals only. In other words it’s no different than in American civilian life. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-atheists-join-armies-in-the-same-numbers-that-believers-do/443912/16 "2008-04-04T16:00:46Z")
[QUOTE=Beware of Doug] Yes, a really meaningful comparison would be males 18-40something, military vs civilian. [/QUOTE] Perhaps, but it’s somewhat irrelevant because of the sampling bias, i.e. the population is self-selecting because they volunteered. More to the point, the question asked by the OP is “Do they join in the same numbers?”, to which you would have to say no if you accept those numbers as valid. Of course, since religious preference is nothing more than an opinion, I see no reason to doubt the results, unless you’re prepared to say that the opinions of the respondents are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-atheists-join-armies-in-the-same-numbers-that-believers-do/443912/17 "2008-04-04T16:47:06Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] Perhaps, but it’s somewhat irrelevant because of the sampling bias, i.e. the population is self-selecting because they volunteered. More to the point, the question asked by the OP is “Do they join in the same numbers?”, to which you would have to say no if you accept those numbers as valid. Of course, since religious preference is nothing more than an opinion, I see no reason to doubt the results, unless you’re prepared to say that the opinions of the respondents are wrong. [/QUOTE] But the whole question is about if religious people self select for military service more than atheists do. I would have thought yes, just from many coming from highly religious regions of the country. But you fought my ignorance. Now, it would be real interesting to see level of atheism vs years of service. Or maybe residence in foxholes. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-atheists-join-armies-in-the-same-numbers-that-believers-do/443912/18 "2008-04-06T09:15:27Z")
I was an atheist/agnostic/nonreligious when I joined the Air National Guard many years ago. They never asked me my religion and my dogtags didn’t have religion on them. When I got to basic training, the TI (same as drill instructor) threatened to give anyone not going to church extra duties to fill in those hours. Not surprisingly, everyone went to church in basic. Or at least went in that general direction. After a couple weeks, I found that a large fraction of my flight were skipping the services and just hanging out somewhere near the chapel. So don’t know about foxholes, but there are atheists in basic training. They’re just in the closet, so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-atheists-join-armies-in-the-same-numbers-that-believers-do/443912/19 "2008-04-06T10:37:37Z")
There are [atheists in foxholes](http://www.maaf.info/expaif.html). I’m an atheist in the US Army, and it isn’t so bad. In my experience, except for a cheesy prayer you have to stay quiet for before almost any big event, there isn’t much different about religious treatment in the Army than civilian life. It took me a while to get the paperwork to reflect my atheism, though. For years, even though I’d put “None” next to “Religion” when it was asked, I’d see “No religious preference” in all my files, including my dogtags. But I _do_ have a preference, and that preference is _no religion at all_. It’s a subtle difference. I finally put down "Atheist’ and after a few tries, it finally stuck. I’d prefer not to have my “religion” listed as “atheism” though. That makes it sound like I worship Richard Dawkins. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-atheists-join-armies-in-the-same-numbers-that-believers-do/443912/20 "2008-04-06T12:01:13Z")
I’d be interested in seeing a breakdown between the officer corps vs. the enlisted. My experience always matched the West Point comment above, as well as some articles that have recently run about the Air Force Academy, that there’s very much an ‘onward Christian soldiers’ vibe about the whole thing. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-atheists-join-armies-in-the-same-numbers-that-believers-do/443912.md?page=2)