# Do away with borders
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-away-with-borders/698238
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [September 11, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-away-with-borders/698238 "2014-09-11T21:15:29Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 7
### Author:  [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)
#### Post date: [September 14, 2014, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-away-with-borders/698238/121 "2014-09-14T05:01:11Z")
It wasn’t a joke in the first place, it was a point about the value, prevalence and possibility of freely given labour, so you’re quite right in being miserable about it all because your trapped in a sadomasochist society that exploits you rather than nurtures you.
Some bad news about societies - none of them last forever, they all fail, anarchist or not. Could be good news, depending on your attachments.
---
### Author:  [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)
#### Post date: [September 14, 2014, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-away-with-borders/698238/122 "2014-09-14T05:05:43Z")
Anyway, thanks, bye.
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### Author:  [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)
#### Post date: [September 14, 2014, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-away-with-borders/698238/123 "2014-09-14T12:23:10Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#):
>
> It wasn’t a joke in the first place, it was a point about the value, prevalence and possibility of freely given labour, so you’re quite right in being miserable about it all because your trapped in a sadomasochist society that exploits you rather than nurtures you.
> Some bad news about societies - none of them last forever, they all fail, anarchist or not. Could be good news, depending on your attachments.
Oh, goodie. A nihilist. We’ve not heard from one of those before!
Tell me, **MrQwertyasd** , what are you here for? A good argument? I don’t think so. Given how this and other threads you started have gone for you, and how often you bring up sadomasochism, I get the feeling you like the abuse.
---
### Author:  [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)
#### Post date: [September 14, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-away-with-borders/698238/124 "2014-09-14T16:13:45Z")
> [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](#):
>
> OK, why has there never been a successful anarchist region? Why has every de facto anarchy degenerated into a pit of hell, _a la_ Afghanistan after the US invasion, Somalia, DROC, et al?
See, this is what I’m talking about.
Do you know [anything about](http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/secI8.html) the [Spanish Revolution](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Revolution), and/or [Anarchist Catalonia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Catalonia)? There’s also the [Ukraine Free Territory](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Territory). Anarchism also plays/played a major part in the Kronstadt Rebellion, the Paris Commune, the recuperated enterprises in Argentina from 2001-present, the Zapatista Uprising, and much more.
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### Author:  [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)
#### Post date: [September 15, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-away-with-borders/698238/125 "2014-09-15T17:23:14Z")
Well yes. But those anarchic places were replaced, in many cases by totalitarian dictatorships, in fairly short order.
That’s the point I try to make about anarchy–unless you have a method of dealing with people who want to loot and enslave everyone else, then your anarchy lasts until someone realizes how easy it would be to loot and enslave everyone else.
In cases like the Ukrainian anarchists, it’s not hyperbole to say that they were enslaved in a pretty literal way by the Communists who had different ideas about the ideal society.
It certainly is true that non-state systems of social organization tend to become stronger when state level systems break down. The problem is that these systems either evolve into states or quasi-states on their own, or are swept away when a state level actor accumulates enough power to reassert control.
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### Author:  [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2014, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-away-with-borders/698238/126 "2014-09-16T01:59:08Z")
> [@Lemur866](#):
>
> Well yes. But those anarchic places were replaced, in many cases by totalitarian dictatorships, in fairly short order.
>
> That’s the point I try to make about anarchy–unless you have a method of dealing with people who want to loot and enslave everyone else, then your anarchy lasts until someone realizes how easy it would be to loot and enslave everyone else.
>
> In cases like the Ukrainian anarchists, it’s not hyperbole to say that they were enslaved in a pretty literal way by the Communists who had different ideas about the ideal society.
>
> It certainly is true that non-state systems of social organization tend to become stronger when state level systems break down. The problem is that these systems either evolve into states or quasi-states on their own, or are swept away when a state level actor accumulates enough power to reassert control.
True, there’s not a great track record of resiliency. Is that really due to the characteristics of anarchism, though? In Spain, Franco won because he had access to much greater help than that received by the Republican forces. His victory was not primarily due to infighting among the Republicans, nor because some of them were anarchists. In the Russian Civil War, the Bolsheviks gained much strength and momentum (and support) in their victory over the Whites, and the former Russian Empire just didn’t have a large enough (and broad enough) anarchist movement to prevent the eventual crushing of the Free Territory, and so on and so forth.
Consider that the Mexican government has been unwilling to crush the Zapatistas the way they have crushed (or at least dispersed or marginalized) other movements, like the 2006 Oaxacan rebellion.
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-away-with-borders/698238/127 "2014-09-16T13:58:46Z")
[QUOTE=MrQwertyasd]
Why not do away with borders in favour of anarchy zones ?
[/QUOTE]
Good idea - I hereby declare all of your property an anarchy zone. So I and a few of my friends will be stopping in and helping ourselves to whatever is available. Who’s to stop us?
Regards,
Shodan
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-away-with-borders/698238/128 "2014-09-16T14:16:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> Good idea - I hereby declare all of your property an anarchy zone. So I and a few of my friends will be stopping in and helping ourselves to whatever is available. Who’s to stop us?
>
> Regards,
> Shodan
Why, the anarchists he has hired to guard the community property he has on his private property, of course!
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### Author:  [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Joker_and_the_Thief)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-away-with-borders/698238/129 "2014-09-16T15:44:55Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#):
>
> True, there’s not a great track record of resiliency. Is that really due to the characteristics of anarchism, though?
The capture and rule of anarchist regions by external forces is inherent in anarchism because anarchy lacks an effective mechanism to stop invaders. Almost by definition, anarchy lacks hierarchical command structures, while highly structured and disciplined forces comprise every effective military. Anarchists may make good guerrillas, but they’ll be crushed by a real military every time.
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> Why, the anarchists he has hired to guard the community property he has on his private property, of course!
Hire? why, he won’t pay a dime! We’re not considering the “possibility of freely given labour”!
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-away-with-borders/698238/130 "2014-09-16T15:51:22Z")
If there are no borders, which government collects property taxes?
Can the US government collect property taxes from someone living in a house in Tijuana?
Can the Mexican government collect property taxes from someone living in a house near Lake Michigan?
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### Author:  [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)
#### Post date: [September 17, 2014, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-away-with-borders/698238/131 "2014-09-17T12:26:07Z")
> [@Lemur866](#):
>
> All chaps are assless, that’s what makes them chaps and not pants.
>
> In order to replace the current borders with anarchic neutral zones, you’d have to cede territory along the borders to form the new neutral zones. How many countries are going to want to do that? Who’s going to pay to relocate the citizens who live in the neutral zones? What if they don’t want to move, but don’t want to live in the new zone?
>
> Here it is in 2014, and we’ve got a lot fewer zones than I thought we’d have when I was a kid. Forget your flying car, I was promised zones. Forbidden zones, neutral zones, phantom zones, danger zones, dead zones. And all we got are some crappy time zones and free trade zones.
hey! Louisiana has a dead zone! AND it getting bigger almost every year…
> **[Mississippi River/Gulf of Mexico Hypoxia Task Force | US EPA](https://www.epa.gov/ms-htf)**
>
> The Hypoxia Task Force is a collaborative state/federal partnership co-led by EPA to address nutrient pollution in the Mississippi-Atchafalaya River Basin and hypoxia in the Gulf of Mexico.
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### Author:  [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-away-with-borders/698238/132 "2014-09-18T04:51:18Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Anarchists may make good guerrillas, but they’ll be crushed by a real military every time.
But not by yours, eh ? Anarchy seem to be what’s left\* after\* the military have been in action, not _before_.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-away-with-borders/698238/133 "2014-09-18T04:58:09Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#):
>
> But not by yours, eh ? Anarchy seem to be what’s left\* after\* the military have been in action, not _before_.
Hardly. The most common cause of anarchy is the collapse of the government, including the military.
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### Author:  [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-away-with-borders/698238/134 "2014-09-18T05:55:14Z")
> [@](#):
>
> That’s the point I try to make about anarchy–unless you have a method of dealing with people who want to loot and enslave everyone else
So, if you are not living in an anarchy, I must presume you are a slave, or a slaver ?
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### Author:  [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-away-with-borders/698238/135 "2014-09-18T06:00:24Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Good idea - I hereby declare all of your property an anarchy zone. So I and a few of my friends will be stopping in and helping ourselves to whatever is available. Who’s to stop us?
Your comrades and superiors, who will remove your loot from you because you reside in a power hierarchy in which you have to suck ass or get beaten. Nice way of life if you’re completely desperate.
---
### Author:  [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-away-with-borders/698238/136 "2014-09-18T06:10:27Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> Hardly. The most common cause of anarchy is the collapse of the government, including the military.
You know that thing in physics where they say “it’s not even wrong” ?
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### Author:  [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Joker_and_the_Thief)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-away-with-borders/698238/137 "2014-09-18T06:21:06Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#):
>
> Your comrades and superiors, who will remove your loot from you because you reside in a power hierarchy in which you have to suck ass or get beaten. Nice way of life if you’re completely desperate.
This isn’t even internally consistent, much less consistent with reality.
1. If we’re discussing a modern capitalist society, why do you use the word “comrade”, which is strongly associated with communism?
2. The people in power are the least desperate and the most likely to have a good way of life. The people who are the most desperate, by definition, have the lowest quality of life.
3. You seem to be saying that I cannot take your stuff because the oppressive police and government would stop me.
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### Author:  [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Joker_and_the_Thief)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-away-with-borders/698238/138 "2014-09-18T06:31:30Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#):
>
> You know that thing in physics where they say “it’s not even wrong” ?
Well, the phrase comes from science, not physics, but I’ll let it slide.
anarchy as a function of governmental collapse is absolutely falsifiable, and can easily be proved or disproved by examining the cause of anarchies around the world.
There are three countries which can be plausibly classified as anarchist or having anarchist elements: Afghanistan, Somalia, and the Democratic Republic of the Congo.
Afghanistan: Current conditions are a result of the collapse of the Taliban-led government in 2001, which itself barely managed to create a government out of the anarchy following the collapse of the Communist government in 1992.
Somalia: Current conditions are a result of the collapse of the Somali government in 1991 following the outbreak of the Somali Civil War.
DROC: Current conditions are a result of the effective collapse of the government following the outbreak of the First and Second Congo Wars in the mid 1990s.
The evidence strongly supports the idea that anarchies arise as a function of the collapse of government and their security forces.
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### Author:  [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-away-with-borders/698238/139 "2014-09-18T12:39:14Z")
This isn’t even internally consistent, much less consistent with reality.
1. If we’re discussing a modern capitalist society, why do you use the word “comrade”, which is strongly associated with communism?
I don’t care if 70 years of cold war propaganda gives you a paranoid phobia for a word, Mr McCarthy
1. The people in power are the least desperate and the most likely to have a good way of life. The people who are the most desperate, by definition, have the lowest quality of life.
I don’t see the relevance.
1. You seem to be saying that I cannot take your stuff because the oppressive police and government would stop me.
You didn’t say how the power structure in your fantasy state worked, so I made one up for you - no fee.
---
### Author:  [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-away-with-borders/698238/140 "2014-09-18T12:40:41Z")
> [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](#):
>
> Well, the phrase comes from science, not physics, but I’ll let it slide.
>
> anarchy as a function of governmental collapse is absolutely falsifiable, and can easily be proved or disproved by examining the cause of anarchies around the world.
>
> There are three countries which can be plausibly classified as anarchist or having anarchist elements: Afghanistan, Somalia, and the Democratic Republic of the Congo.
>
> Afghanistan: Current conditions are a result of the collapse of the Taliban-led government in 2001, which itself barely managed to create a government out of the anarchy following the collapse of the Communist government in 1992.
>
> Somalia: Current conditions are a result of the collapse of the Somali government in 1991 following the outbreak of the Somali Civil War.
>
> DROC: Current conditions are a result of the effective collapse of the government following the outbreak of the First and Second Congo Wars in the mid 1990s.
>
> The evidence strongly supports the idea that anarchies arise as a function of the collapse of government and their security forces.
Jesus, if you think the US and allied military had nothing to do with those anarchies and more then then we’re talking about two different worlds and I can’t really answer you.
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