# Do bartenders really hate making Long Island Iced Teas? (and other bar questions) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 10, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-bartenders-really-hate-making-long-island-iced-teas-and-other-bar-questions/560202 "2010-11-10T18:59:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-bartenders-really-hate-making-long-island-iced-teas-and-other-bar-questions/560202/41 "2010-11-10T22:08:38Z")
> [@filling\_pages](#): > > Really? Having a sign at the bar saying that a 15% fee will be added to the bill of anyone who does not close their tab out at the end of the night is credit card fraud? Do you have a cite on that? Because it’s just how things are done in this neck of the woods. I agree - I think it likely you could challenge the tip and get it reversed, but if it is posted, I highly doubt it is fraudulent to add the service charge. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-bartenders-really-hate-making-long-island-iced-teas-and-other-bar-questions/560202/42 "2010-11-10T22:11:53Z")
> [@filling\_pages](#): > > Really? Having a sign at the bar saying that a 15% fee will be added to the bill of anyone who does not close their tab out at the end of the night is credit card fraud? Do you have a cite on that? Because it’s just how things are done in this neck of the woods. Charging people for things they do not purchase is credit card fraud. It’s outright theft. Does that really need a cite? It’s the exact same thing as a bartender altering a receipt to increase their tip. It’s certainly done in some places. Some cities have chosen not to enforce complaints. Some customers have become trained to tolerate it. It’s still illegal in addition to being a violation of the businesses contract with Visa/MC. When you run a business that takes credit cards you sign a contract with Visa that stipulates that you will not treat credit differently than cash. The prices must be the same, you cannot have minimums and you cannot add a surcharge. Doing so is grounds to dispute a charge. Repeated offenses can get your credit card privileges revoked and a fee charged for terminating the contract. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-bartenders-really-hate-making-long-island-iced-teas-and-other-bar-questions/560202/43 "2010-11-10T22:17:02Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > It’s either the new drinker who has no idea what they want and only want something that tastes good or that they have heard of on TV. These people don’t tip well and get sloppy drunk. :o In my defense, I do find out what I want before so no one is waiting, and I play by the $1 a drink tip rule. And I’ve had more booze spilled on me by waitresses than I’ve spilled myself (ie., the waitress spilled once and I haven’t spilled at all). I just feel so lame going to bars. There’s this whole etiquette I have no idea about. I try to avoid actual bars to instead go to restaurants with lounges and drink menus and there’s a waitress and I never actually go to the bartender myself. ---
**Author:** ![Pandoranoid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce73a5/32.png) [@Pandoranoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pandoranoid)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-bartenders-really-hate-making-long-island-iced-teas-and-other-bar-questions/560202/44 "2010-11-10T22:18:27Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Charging people for things they do not purchase is credit card fraud. It’s outright theft. Does that really need a cite? It’s the exact same thing as a bartender altering a receipt to increase their tip. > > It’s certainly done in some places. Some cities have chosen not to enforce complaints. Some customers have become trained to tolerate it. It’s still illegal in addition to being a violation of the businesses contract with Visa/MC. > > When you run a business that takes credit cards you sign a contract with Visa that stipulates that you will not treat credit differently than cash. The prices must be the same, you cannot have minimums and you cannot add a surcharge. Doing so is grounds to dispute a charge. Repeated offenses can get your credit card privileges revoked and a fee charged for terminating the contract. The price must be the same as what, EXACTLY? What is the exact wording of the fine print here? This is why yes, you kinda do need a cite. I dunno, maybe posting a sign stipulating the procedure for open tabs somehow satisfies these requirements? I find it hard to believe that this is a lawsuit just waiting to be won, considering that most bars do this. Anyway, you wanna try and fight it, good luck to you. You’ll probably get mighty thirsty the next time you’re waiting to get served at that local watering hole is all I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-bartenders-really-hate-making-long-island-iced-teas-and-other-bar-questions/560202/45 "2010-11-10T22:26:07Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Charging people for things they do not purchase is credit card fraud. It’s outright theft. Does that really need a cite? It’s the exact same thing as a bartender altering a receipt to increase their tip. > > It’s certainly done in some places. Some cities have chosen not to enforce complaints. Some customers have become trained to tolerate it. It’s still illegal in addition to being a violation of the businesses contract with Visa/MC. > > When you run a business that takes credit cards you sign a contract with Visa that stipulates that you will not treat credit differently than cash. The prices must be the same, you cannot have minimums and you cannot add a surcharge. Doing so is grounds to dispute a charge. Repeated offenses can get your credit card privileges revoked and a fee charged for terminating the contract. Except it isn’t charging people for something they didn’t purchase, any more than mistakenly leaving the bar without paying you check makes you immediately prosecutable for theft. Are you claiming it would be fraud to charge their card for the drinks they had? I presume not. If you then have a sign saying “unpaid tabs will be assessed a 15% service fee” nobody is being overcharged. As I mentioned, you can challenge it, and presumably have it reversed. Just like when the menu says “a party of 6 will incur a 15% service charge” you can refuse to pay it. However, if you don’t say anything (which is what you are doing by leaving without paying), you are accepting the policy, until you later have a chance to reverse it. It’s not treating people any differently than if they paid (or failed to pay) cash. If they walked out on a cash tab (unlikely because no one will run them one), but if they did, when they returned to pay, they would find 15% service charge added. They could then refuse to pay that - **just like in the current situation**. I’m going to need more than you word and user name that this is fraud. Even if you do possess the ultimate truths to bartending. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-bartenders-really-hate-making-long-island-iced-teas-and-other-bar-questions/560202/46 "2010-11-10T22:27:36Z")
> [@kushiel](#): > > I just feel so lame going to bars. There’s this whole etiquette I have no idea about. I try to avoid actual bars to instead go to restaurants with lounges and drink menus and there’s a waitress and I never actually go to the bartender myself. You shouldn’t feel lame. Be yourself. You come across as a really nice person, and if the bartender doesn’t see that, well, find somewhere with a better class of bartender. There are no rules (other than the one about Rush) whatever anyone tells you. Well, except for be nice. And you seem to be. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-bartenders-really-hate-making-long-island-iced-teas-and-other-bar-questions/560202/47 "2010-11-10T22:34:45Z")
I understand the stress. My bar issues a $25 minimum on credit card purchases. We do it to avoid people attempting to issue a separate credit transaction for every single round they order. Doing that would slow service to a crawl. This is a clear violation of our contract. Very occasionally a customer will call their bank and complain, Visa/MC typically reverses the charge and the bar loses the money. At this point it doesn’t happen often enough to be a major problem and Visa doesn’t have much motivation to enforce the contract considering the amount of fees we generate. The rule is intended to prevent large corporations from doing this systemically. There is a distinction between having a minimum and charging people for things they don’t purchase. We can refuse service to anyone, and we refuse service to people who don’t want to abide by the minimum. Charging people for things they don’t purchase escalates the issue beyond a contract dispute to a criminal and civil violation. Again, there’s little motivation for the city to enforce this but there’s no justification for it being acceptable. I don’t know if Visa has their contract available online, I’m not going to search to hard for it. I suppose you’ll have to take my word for it. I’ve read my bar’s contract personally. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-bartenders-really-hate-making-long-island-iced-teas-and-other-bar-questions/560202/48 "2010-11-10T22:40:35Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Except it isn’t charging people for something they didn’t purchase, any more than mistakenly leaving the bar without paying you check makes you immediately prosecutable for theft. > > Are you claiming it would be fraud to charge their card for the drinks they had? I presume not. If you then have a sign saying “unpaid tabs will be assessed a 15% service fee” nobody is being overcharged. As I mentioned, you can challenge it, and presumably have it reversed. Just like when the menu says “a party of 6 will incur a 15% service charge” you can refuse to pay it. However, if you don’t say anything (which is what you are doing by leaving without paying), you are accepting the policy, until you later have a chance to reverse it. > > It’s not treating people any differently than if they paid (or failed to pay) cash. If they walked out on a cash tab (unlikely because no one will run them one), but if they did, when they returned to pay, they would find 15% service charge added. They could then refuse to pay that - **just like in the current situation**. > > I’m going to need more than you word and user name that this is fraud. Even if you do possess the ultimate truths to bartending. This policy has been spelled out to us by the CPD and Alderman. Violating this could result in dings on our license and any publicity would kill business considering the amount of competition. I suspect it has never been tried in court, and there is no specific statute considering that it involves less than $20 usually. Perhaps a class action lawsuit has been tried somewhere. Doesn’t matter, we have our license at the pleasure of the city and this is how they interpret it. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-bartenders-really-hate-making-long-island-iced-teas-and-other-bar-questions/560202/49 "2010-11-10T22:42:42Z")
Here’s the first search result I found. [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11697094/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11697094/) ---
**Author:** ![AutumnLeaves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/45deac/32.png) [@AutumnLeaves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AutumnLeaves)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-bartenders-really-hate-making-long-island-iced-teas-and-other-bar-questions/560202/50 "2010-11-10T22:43:04Z")
> [@villa](#): > > There are no absolute truths other than people who put Rush on the juke box haven’t had sex in 3 years minimum. Oh see, in Canada, we just called those “Canadians”. 😛 They’re getting laid alright. Probably while listening to Rush. Try not to picture it. Try really hard. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-bartenders-really-hate-making-long-island-iced-teas-and-other-bar-questions/560202/51 "2010-11-10T22:43:46Z")
> [@villa](#): > > There are no absolute truths other than people who put Rush on the juke box haven’t had sex in 3 years minimum. That one’s not true either, dude. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-bartenders-really-hate-making-long-island-iced-teas-and-other-bar-questions/560202/52 "2010-11-10T22:46:56Z")
Here’ a more detailed cite: [http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/merchants-who-violate-credit-card-terms-1275.php](http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/merchants-who-violate-credit-card-terms-1275.php) ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-bartenders-really-hate-making-long-island-iced-teas-and-other-bar-questions/560202/53 "2010-11-10T23:04:58Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > I understand the stress. My bar issues a $25 minimum on credit card purchases. We do it to avoid people attempting to issue a separate credit transaction for every single round they order. Doing that would slow service to a crawl. This is a clear violation of our contract. > > Very occasionally a customer will call their bank and complain, Visa/MC typically reverses the charge and the bar loses the money. At this point it doesn’t happen often enough to be a major problem and Visa doesn’t have much motivation to enforce the contract considering the amount of fees we generate. The rule is intended to prevent large corporations from doing this systemically. > > There is a distinction between having a minimum and charging people for things they don’t purchase. We can refuse service to anyone, and we refuse service to people who don’t want to abide by the minimum. Charging people for things they don’t purchase escalates the issue beyond a contract dispute to a criminal and civil violation. Again, there’s little motivation for the city to enforce this but there’s no justification for it being acceptable. > > I don’t know if Visa has their contract available online, I’m not going to search to hard for it. I suppose you’ll have to take my word for it. I’ve read my bar’s contract personally. Whoa, wait, we’re talking a transaction by each drink? If I had to pay every time I got a drink, I sure would track down an ATM. I’ve always just paid the entire bill when I leave. But again, I’m not exactly in the rowdy college group who might slip out without paying. I’m in the ‘white collar coworkers going to bitch about work’ group or the ‘we’re actually here for the nachos’ crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-bartenders-really-hate-making-long-island-iced-teas-and-other-bar-questions/560202/54 "2010-11-10T23:13:55Z")
You got it backwards. It’s not bar policy. That’s just what young college aged customers do these days. It’s a busy bar and they are afraid they’ll get drunk and forget their card or they don’t have any money in their account and are drinking on debt. They think it’s acceptable to buy a $6 cocktail and close their tab immediately because they either can’t get cash or are too lazy to. They’d rather try and stick the bar with the transaction fee instead of paying the ATM fee. Nevermind that they’ll be forcing everyone else who might be ordering big rounds to wait for them. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-bartenders-really-hate-making-long-island-iced-teas-and-other-bar-questions/560202/55 "2010-11-10T23:34:14Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Here’s the first search result I found. > > [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11697094/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11697094/) It looks to me like the passage of the [Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act](http://www.bankrate.com/financing/credit-cards/what-the-dodd-frank-act-means-for-you/), credit card companies can no longer block merchant from setting minimum purchase amounts any longer. > [@](#): > > The bill also says that payment networks can’t block merchants from setting minimum and maximum transaction amounts for the acceptance of payment cards, as long as the transaction restrictions apply to all issuers and payment networks. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-bartenders-really-hate-making-long-island-iced-teas-and-other-bar-questions/560202/56 "2010-11-10T23:45:14Z")
Interesting, I can’t find anything in the Wiki article that discusses those effects but it would be welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-bartenders-really-hate-making-long-island-iced-teas-and-other-bar-questions/560202/57 "2010-11-10T23:52:06Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Interesting, I can’t find anything in the Wiki article that discusses those effects but it would be welcome. I can’t find it in the Wikipedia article, but here’s [The Consumerists](http://consumerist.com/2010/09/amex-visa-mastercard-all-give-thumbs-up-to-10-credit-card-minimums.html)take on the issue. ETA: …And here’s the text from the [Act](http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h4173enr.txt.pdf): > [@](#): > > ‘‘(3) LIMITATION ON RESTRICTIONS ON SETTING TRANSACTION > MINIMUMS OR MAXIMUMS.— > ‘‘(A) IN GENERAL.—A payment card network shall not, > directly or through any agent, processor, or licensed > member of the network, by contract, requirement, condition, > penalty, or otherwise, inhibit the ability— > ‘‘(i) of any person to set a minimum dollar value > for the acceptance by that person of credit cards, to > the extent that — > ‘‘(I) such minimum dollar value does not differentiate > between issuers or between payment > card networks; and > ‘‘(II) such minimum dollar value does not > exceed $10.00; or > ‘‘(ii) of any Federal agency or institution of higher > education to set a maximum dollar value for the acceptance > by that Federal agency or institution of higher > education of credit cards, to the extent that such maximum > dollar value does not differentiate between > issuers or between payment card networks. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-bartenders-really-hate-making-long-island-iced-teas-and-other-bar-questions/560202/58 "2010-11-11T00:08:06Z")
Well, a $10 minimum helps 7-Eleven. Doesn’t do shit for bars where the transaction fee is less of an issue than the imposition of actually physically processing a card and signing a receipt. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-bartenders-really-hate-making-long-island-iced-teas-and-other-bar-questions/560202/59 "2010-11-11T00:58:11Z")
Back in the 90s I live in London and a good place for my age range was a bar called “long island Iced Tea” where said drink was drunk by 90% of the people in there. Does anyone know if it still exists? IIRC it was just east of Leicester Square station. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-bartenders-really-hate-making-long-island-iced-teas-and-other-bar-questions/560202/60 "2010-11-11T03:12:52Z")
Quick question: weekend night, busy bar, what would you tip for 1- A Coke if the bartender charges for it 2- A Coke if the bartender doesn’t charge for it 3- A $3 to $6 bottle of beer [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-bartenders-really-hate-making-long-island-iced-teas-and-other-bar-questions/560202.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-bartenders-really-hate-making-long-island-iced-teas-and-other-bar-questions/560202.md?page=4)