# Do blacks really have 70% illigitimate births? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 18, 2006, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566 "2006-01-18T22:40:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/81 "2006-01-22T17:52:54Z")
> [@The Flying Dutchman](#): > > These grandparents should be free like the rest of us aging humanity to reconnect with their spouse and achieve retirement goals. Don’t you see what a recent phenomenon this is? It is certainly not self-evident to me that “retirement” is the natural goal for grandparents. For one thing, it is only very recently that people have lived for long enough past their child-bearing years to even contemplate such a thing. For another thing, a lot of people dread the thought of “retirement,” often because they fear being shuttled away in a retirement castle, or being made irrelevant in other ways. Many grandparents are thrilled to participate in bringing up their grandkids, even if they do it at the same time as taking care of their own kids. Please don’t try to force them into your own model of how families should go. Not everyone’s retirement goals are the same as yours, and that’s not a problem. On why there are so many more black kids born to single parents than white kids, a few other suggestions: For some reason on which I do not care to speculate, many many Jamaican kids are born to single mothers. Anecdote: I know a Jamaican woman, who hooked up with an African fellow, and who quickly had a baby. The relationship didn’t last even until the birth of the baby. It was clear to me that the woman wanted a baby, and the thought of having a reliable father for her baby had not entered her plans. (To the extent that he had to fight quite hard for access to the sprog.) I am told that this is fairly common in Jamaica: while I (a white middle class Canadian woman) think of starting a family, I think of husband first, then baby. It seems this has been disrupted in Jamaica and also, it seems, among black women in America. It has also been disrupted among many upper-class white women (e.g. Angelia Jolie), but they are never criticized for it because they have the resources to easily provide. I am not comfortable with making your reproductive freedom dependent on your existing resources. How many of our parents would have been able to pass a means test before giving birth to us? What if your existence was dependent on it? Solution: look at why the traditional “husband, then baby” strategy is not resonating in the minds of black women. It might have something to do with men (black AND white, and I say this as the daughter of a white one and the wife of a black one). As an unapologetic radical feminist, I believe the time has come for us to devote as much attention to men in society as women. Another possibility (and again, I am not a black woman so I am not speaking for them, just speculating): the ‘hopelessness’ experienced by black men is commonly discussed. Growing up in the inner city they don’t have many options, they don’t see people who look like them represented in positions of authority, they do not have mentors, they do not have opportunities, not like white men do. This is often cited as a context under which gang culture, drugs and firearms, proliferate, because they are trying to earn “respect” in the only way available to them. (Here I am by no means trying to justify or excuse their actions, just relating some of the theories they’ve been discussing in response to recent gang violence in Toronto.) Perhaps black women experience the same sort of thing, but instead of gaining respect by shooting people who disrespect them, they gain respect by starting families of their own. At the end of the day, the only way to “solve” this problem and return society to our expectations of the heterosexual nuclear family is to physically prevent people from having children until their family matches our expectations. I find this to be absolutely abhorrent and unacceptable. What we must do is find the root of the problem (that too many kids are raised in environments which cannot provide for their emotional and material needs - and that this happens independently of how many caregivers they have, what their relationship to the kid is, and what relationship they have with each other) and address that. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/82 "2006-01-22T18:56:40Z")
> [@cowgirl](#): > > Don’t you see what a recent phenomenon this is? It is certainly not self-evident to me that “retirement” is the natural goal for grandparents. For one thing, it is only very recently that people have lived for long enough past their child-bearing years to even contemplate such a thing. For another thing, a lot of people dread the thought of “retirement,” often because they fear being shuttled away in a retirement castle, or being made irrelevant in other ways. Many grandparents are thrilled to participate in bringing up their grandkids, even if they do it at the same time as taking care of their own kids. Wow, talk about mental gymnastics! So now, grandparents raising their grandchildren out of necessity isn’t a problem, it’s the solution to the “problem” of retirement. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/83 "2006-01-22T19:26:36Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Wow, talk about mental gymnastics! So now, grandparents raising their grandchildren out of necessity isn’t a problem, it’s the solution to the “problem” of retirement. No, it’s not. It’s some families’ solution. Why should we demonize them instead of supporting them? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/84 "2006-01-22T19:54:30Z")
> [@cowgirl](#): > > The point is that adherence to the nuclear family model is not a good predictor of an effective child-rearing environment. Actually, it is - a better one, in fact, than a single-parent model. > [@cowgirl](#): > > All it means is that the model of society which is based on a nuclear family model is no longer effective. If by “effective” you mean “the consensus choice”, you are right. If by “effective” you mean “more likely to lead to positive outcomes for women and children”, you are wrong. Single parent households fail at child-rearing more often than two-parent households. You can use pretty much any definition of “failing” you like. Simply pretending that this is nothing but a change in definitions is, in my opinion, a misuse of language and a failure of our society. Single motherhood (which describes roughly 80% of all single parent households) is not ‘just as good’ as a two parent family. And I would be interested in reading some kind of cite that shows that most older adults look forward eagerly to their daughters getting pregnant out of wedlock so they can spend their golden years raising another set of children. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/85 "2006-01-22T19:58:15Z")
> [@cowgirl](#): > > Don’t you see what a recent phenomenon this is? It is certainly not self-evident to me that “retirement” is the natural goal for grandparents. I did not say that retirement was a goal. I referred to retirement goals which is different for each and every one of us. It can even include continuing to work. Retirement for most everyone is inevitable when you can no longer look after yourself the same way when you did when you were productive. Older people are well aware that it is important during their productive years to provide for their old age. Many people after their kids leave home prioritize retirement funding and planning. Having to look after another generation of children does not factor in the desires of 99.999% of upper middle aged people. > [@](#): > > For another thing, a lot of people dread the thought of “retirement,” often because they fear being shuttled away in a retirement castle, or being made irrelevant in other ways. Agreed, and that is because they failed or were unable to provide for themselves earlier or because they just fear losing control of their lives. > [@](#): > > Many grandparents are thrilled to participate in bringing up their grandkids, even if they do it at the same time as taking care of their own kids. There is a gigantic difference between participating in the rearing of their grandchildren, and being the guardian of their grand children. Surely you won’t dispute that. > [@](#): > > Please don’t try to force them into your own model of how families should go. Not everyone’s retirement goals are the same as yours, and that’s not a problem. > . Nobody is forcing or promoting forcing grandparents to give up their grandchildren. Nobody is demonizing guardian grandparents either. On the contrary, I think they are heros. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/86 "2006-01-22T20:15:53Z")
> [@The Flying Dutchman](#): > > Grandparents as guardians of their grandchildren is a very unfortunate social trend. There can be nothing positive in it. This is such a burden on grandparents, who have to consider the awful plight of their children while doing the best they can to rescue their grandchildren from a failing life which I’m sure they can’t help feeling some responsibility. These grandparents should be free like the rest of us aging humanity to reconnect with their spouse and achieve retirement goals. What the hell are you talking about? Grandparents have been major care givers since the beginning of time and this pattern is prevalent in most societies- even our own recent past. Far from being an awful burden, some people welcome it. My own mother keeps asking me “When are you going to have a kid? You can come back to Sacramento and Grandma and I will help you raise it.” While this isn’t something that should be thrust on someone unwillingly, and while the mother/father should be at least equally involved- raising a grandchild can be as rewarding as parenthood is the first time around and is a much better arrangement IMHO than daycare and other modern forms of child raising. Not everyone is aiming to spend their retirement playing golf, not everyone has a spouse to ‘reconnect with’ and not every mother who needs some extra support is in an ‘awful plight’ and a ‘failing life’. > [@](#): > > I’m posting as a 55 year old Canadian whose experience with the black population is limited 45 years of news reports, TV , books and movies. My limited experience and relationships with Canadian black people who live in small communities like I do doesn’t even remotely connect with the American black population in jeopardy. There are a million billion more aspects of black culture than ‘being in jeopardy’. It’s a vibrant, diverse, living culture with long roots and a bright future. I bet your black friends feel a lot bigger kinship than you can tell at first glance. > [@](#): > > Someone posted that the problem originated in slavery. I have a hard time believing that. Well, a female centered household extended family household goes back a lot longer than that. Many modern forms of the black American family have their roots in Africa. Added to this is that during slavery there was a concentrated effort to break up families and destroy the family structure- or any social support structure that could lead to organization and rebellion. After slavery, this was morphed in to families where the man worked long hours in the fields or often in distant states, and the female spent much of her time in someone else’s home- sometimes with ‘favors’ expected and the results of those favors left to the woman to raise. > [@](#): > > My impression from my early years is of a majority American black population of high moral standards. There was a black subculture particularly in the music industry prior to Elvis, that pioneered drugs and subtle sexualized music largely confined until the birth of white rock and roll. The older people were shocked and concerned because the constraints on rampant sexuality had been unleashed. The youth culture overall bore little resemblance to the culture of their parents. Sexuality doesn’t preclude having high moral standards. Like any other group, some black subcultures were more sexually open than others. There were church girls and loose girls and everything in between- just like white America. And the older generation has _always_ been shocked at the rampant sexuality of the younger generations. The women of the gay 90’s shook their head in shame at the going’s on of their flapper daughters in the 1920’s. This isn’t a unique time in history. Heh. Ever try having sex on LSD? > [@](#): > > Well the solutions for unwanted births seems to have worked for the white population at large. there were some difficulties but education and availability of abortions and contraceptives seem to have solved that problem. For the whites anyway. So why doesn’t it work for the black population? I can’t believe that they are getting less education on the need for contraception and less availability for abortion. Because, as I’ve said over and over again, motherhood isn’t seen as a bad thing. White America’s ‘pre-requisites’ for motherhood have changed dramatically. When my mom had me in 1980, nobody raised an eyebrow. She was 19, preparing for a shotgun wedding, nowhere near fully educated, had no career or major career plans outside of ‘mother’ and we all lived in a little apartment on the sketchy side of town. Nobody thought what she was doing was at all unusual or suboptimal. It was the same story twenty years before that when my Grandmother did the same thing. At the time, she was living the absolute ideal life for a young woman. Her family was full of congratulations and her peers were jealous. Now, at 25, people still say I am too young to get married and too poor to have kids. The idea of a small ‘starter home’ to start your family in has gone out the window as people are expected to be on their third or forth home in to one that has ‘room to grow in to.’ The Brady bunch raised six kids in a three-bedroom house. But now it’s considered criminal not to have a bedroom and bathroom each for each family member at the last. > [@](#): > > Well, when you live in poverty, the joys of sex become even more urgent. Couple that with the pride that the younger black population have in having their own culture, and we end up with rap. My kids listen to it, yes, but I’m convinced that although they enjoy it, it has no relevance to their lives. They are listening to a foreign culture. There are no hos and bitches in their lives. Listen in on some of these black sitcoms, watch some of these black music videos, and it is sex sex sex and more sex. It seems to be all about sex. What ever happened to love? Which sitcoms are not about sex? Hell, we even put it in the names of our TV programs. And what exactly do the themes in KISS songs have to do with my life? > [@](#): > > So what is the solution? I say it is time that American society and institutions consider controlling public displays of sexuality. We need to dial it back and begin promoting love and the importance, value and joy of commitment to one’s sexual partner. That is definitely not being taught in the schools. 'Cos that worked so great the first time around. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/87 "2006-01-22T20:51:16Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > 'Cos that worked so great the first time around. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. The illegitimate birth rate has climbed steadily for all populations. I don’t think there is an argument there. There is plenty on the net trying to blame it on welfare. One interesting site blames it on the decline of the shotgun wedding which certainly account for the stat on my birth to appear legitimate. That may be true, and supports my argument that we need to downplay overt sexuality in our society and support education on the value of commitment in matters sexual. Insanity is not to look back on a negative trend and see where we have gone wrong, rather than just spout off the same modern solutions like education and availability of mechanical and chemical reproductive controls that a significant portion of the population can’t or won’t use. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/88 "2006-01-22T21:47:49Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > What the hell are you talking about? Grandparents have been major care givers since the beginning of time and this pattern is prevalent in most societies- even our own recent past. Perhaps you could cite the societies in which the norm is for young men to impregnate women and then abandon them and their children for their parents to support. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/89 "2006-01-22T22:37:12Z")
Some additional stats to mill about, these from this month’s issue of _Pediatrics_, “Annual Summary of Vital Statistics”. Highest birthrate 15-17? Hispanic 49.7/1000. Non-Hispanic Black is much less, 36.8, and White down there at 12.0. Hispanic also leads in the 18-19 and 20-24 groups too but by smaller amounts. Of course that group also leads handily overall as well. Birthrate for teens all groups, including Blacks and Hispanics has been decreasing since a peak in 1991. 61 to 41 overall, 118 to 63 for Blacks and 105 to 83 for Hispanics. Blacks do lead the list with mothers being unmarried at 69.2% in 2004. Of note however the increase in the Black population has slight: from 66.7 in 1990. Meanwhile Hispanics have increased from 36.7 to 46.4 and Whites have increased from 28.0 to 35.7. So Hispanics are married Moms more often but also having lots more babies and beginning early. What isn’t included in these stats is what “unmarried” actually means. You can be unmarried and have two parents involved and committed. Or not. Certainly a lack of involved Dads and fluid families is a negative trend for all. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/90 "2006-01-23T07:19:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Perhaps you could cite the societies in which the norm is for young men to impregnate women and then abandon them and their children for their parents to support. Sure. Among the Toraja in Indonesia, the teen years are spent seeking out all kinds of sexual escapades. A form of cohabitation is widely practiced in the teen years. Childbirth generally calls for marriage, but marriages are quickly and easily dissolved and it’s pretty common for young parents to go through several spouses. Children are usually raised by other community members or grandparents. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/91 "2006-01-23T13:01:40Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > Sure. Among the Toraja in Indonesia, the teen years are spent seeking out all kinds of sexual escapades. A form of cohabitation is widely practiced in the teen years. Childbirth generally calls for marriage, but marriages are quickly and easily dissolved and it’s pretty common for young parents to go through several spouses. Children are usually raised by other community members or grandparents. You neglected to provide a link but you got me interested. Deja vu when I remember all that Samoan crap. Nothing on the net regarding the Toraja supports your statement. Its as if you pulled your bullshit right out of your ass. From [Toraja Culture An amateur anthropologist’s report](http://www.tripstravel.com/toraja.html) > [@](#): > > Sex > > **People do not normally have sex until they are married. Girls and boys do not hang around together.** They mainly hang around with each other. This seems to be changing, however; now you do see young, unmarried couples together, but they don’t have casual relationships; if they are together, it’s because they are in love and are going to get married. > Friendship between members of the opposite sex traditionally didn’t happen, but now that also is changing. > Men and women do not touch in public at all. Males touch males, however, and females touch females. In fact, boys are very physical with each other, and girls also are physical with each other. But you very rarely see a man and woman holding hands, for example, and kissing would be considered outrageous. > Joking about sex is very common, though, even in mixed groups. No-one seems to think twice about teasing and making silly comments about sex. > Marriage > > Marriages used to be arranged, and only between members of the same caste. You were not allowed to marry someone from another caste. Families got richer this way, as the combined wealth of two rich families would make an even richer big family. Now, some marriages are still arranged, but it is more common for “love marriages” to take place. Although marriage between members of different castes is permitted, it is still not common, because of the economic factor. No-one wants a financial liability. > During wedding ceremonies, the bride and groom are supposed to look as serious as possible. > After marriage, the man always goes and lives in the woman’s village, with her family. Houses are owned by the women of the family. > Traditionally, the husband’s family had to give the bride’s family a number of buffaloes. > > The Family > > **The family is all important. No-one lives alone.** > There is no real generation gap. Family members of different ages have basically the same interests. Mothers and daughters are best friends and hang around together as much as possible. It is the same with fathers and sons. **After school, rather than hanging out with friends, children come home and do chores and hang around with their parents.** > **Grandparents** live with their adult children and their grandchildren.\*\* Although they do not do very much work, they are free to do small chores if they want to.\*\* They are considered an equal part of the family. > The father is considered the head of the household. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/92 "2006-01-23T16:57:42Z")
My statements are based on a professional anthropologist’s report, [Thread of Life: Toraja Reflections of the Lifecycle](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0824818393/qid=1138033566/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i3_xgl14/103-6708847-0723860?n=507846&s=books&v=glance). It’s a pretty good book and worth a read- it describes a culture of very sleepy adolescents who spend their nights trysting in the fields. In any case, it’s possible they have changed recently. The book mentioned that school, religious conversion and increased fertility was already causing changes. I was wrong about the cohabitation, though. Thats the Tobrianders of New Guinea. Their teens are given their own huts, where anyone can stay over as long as they don’t stay past morning, which would signal that they are married. Anyway, this is just a rundown of “interesting family structures that are on the house I’m subletting’s bookshelf.” The only reason our culture is so in to legitimacy is that we are a patriarchal/patrilinear culture and thus it is important to trace male lineage to determine property inheritance. Change that (say, like our culture has done in the last century) and everything changes. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/93 "2006-01-23T17:06:55Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > The only reason our culture is so in to legitimacy is that we are a patriarchal/patrilinear culture and thus it is important to trace male lineage to determine property inheritance. Alternatively, we’re so into legitimacy because it indicates stable child care and higher income, which themselves have strong correlation to successful child-rearing. Hmmm…two competing theories. I know which one I’d pick. ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/94 "2006-01-23T17:27:45Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Alternatively, we’re so into legitimacy because it indicates stable child care and higher income, which themselves have strong correlation to successful child-rearing. > > Hmmm…two competing theories. I know which one I’d pick. So, “legitimacy” correlates with child care and higher income, which correlates to successful childrearing? Correlation does not equal to causation. You especially cannot get from “A correlates with B, which correlates with C” to “A causes C,” which it appears you are trying to do with the above post. I would posit, as an alternative theory, that those who deviate from the expected norm of a two-parent heterosexual family are penalized for it, because society’s expectations and regulations are geared towards the norm. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/95 "2006-01-23T17:32:15Z")
Conservatives are relentless in their efforts to suppress contraception education and the availability and legitimacy of abortion. If they would expend the same efforts in being part of the solution rather than part of the problem, there is no question it would go down. That said, efforts to promote family planning in the black community are often met with the suspicion that they are motivated by genocide. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/96 "2006-01-23T17:37:53Z")
> [@cowgirl](#): > > So, “legitimacy” correlates with child care and higher income, which correlates to successful childrearing? > > Correlation does not equal to causation. You especially cannot get from “A correlates with B, which correlates with C” to “A causes C,” which it appears you are trying to do with the above post. > . Actually, I doubt that legitimacy has much correlation. It’s just a legal enforcement of stable 2-parent families, which _does_ have a correlation. Agreed that correlation \<\> causation; but if you hold all correlation suspect, you’ve pretty much removed all the underpinnings of all social sciences. ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/97 "2006-01-23T17:48:04Z")
> [@cowgirl](#): > > I would posit, as an alternative theory, that those who deviate from the expected norm of a two-parent heterosexual family are penalized for it, because society’s expectations and regulations are geared towards the norm. And perhaps society’s norm is structured to support a modern, post-industrial society that demands a huge amount of technological training beyond what any previous generations have needed to succeed. And perhaps that’s why using demographic data from relatively ‘primitive’ peoples, as some have done here, doesn’t justify an alarming trend that jeopardizes our advancement as a society. I’m one of those that saw that stat and was shocked- and my first response was, “what can we do to help?” It boggles my mind that this is not seen as a problem, when there are quantifiable results directly tied to the issue. Yes, it is a class issue- but if blacks are overrepresented among lower socio-economic groups, they’ll be disproportionately affected. The question is, really, if there is any state solution for this behavior. btw- I agree with **sqweels** on this point, a large reason why birth control efforts have failed is because, quite often, the push is made by people that would just rather see fewer black people. I remember growing up in NYC and there being a flood of a certain soda in corner stores ($25 cents per 20oz bottle!)- until it was discovered that the manufacturer was, in fact, a white supremacist, and hoped that the extra amounts of yellow-5 in the drink would depress fertility in inner city teens. Urban legend, maybe. But with things like the Tuskegee experiments, easily believed. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/98 "2006-01-23T18:26:39Z")
> [@Stonebow](#): > > I remember growing up in NYC and there being a flood of a certain soda in corner stores ($25 cents per 20oz bottle!)- until it was discovered that the manufacturer was, in fact, a white supremacist, and hoped that the extra amounts of yellow-5 in the drink would depress fertility in inner city teens. Urban legend, maybe. … [Undoubtedly.](http://www.snopes.com/racial/business/tropical.asp) ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/99 "2006-01-23T18:44:46Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Actually, I doubt that legitimacy has much correlation. It’s just a legal enforcement of stable 2-parent families, which _does_ have a correlation. Not really. “Legitimacy” describes the state of being born by married parents. It doesn’t legally enforce anything, let alone _stable_ 2-parent families. Take a look at divorce statistics and then tell me how many “legitimate kids” will eventually end up in homes much like their “illegitimate” cohorts. According to [this site](http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsUS.shtml), the number of divorced single mothers (US pop as a whole) was about 3.4 million in 1997. The number of never-been-married single mothers was 4.2 million. There is a difference between the numbers, but not enough to justify so much more focus on “illegitimacy”. I say this not because I don’t think there is anything to be concerned about, but because there seems to be this strong assumption that kids produced by unmarried people are inherently worse off than kids produced by married ones, and therefore more deserving of scorn/pity/prejudice. What gets less attention are all those kids of divorced parents, who also end up with only one parent. Oh, but I guess because they’re “legitimate” then all is well. Right? That’s the problem with the labels we sometimes attach to things: “illegitimacy” connotes a negative value statement that obscures the main issue. Single parent-hood. What we may be seeing in these statistics is a disparity in how traditionally-defined marriage is perceived between segments of the population, either because of economic factors or because of social ones. Just as divorce rates are influenced by various factors, so are marriage rates. Since this society puts a whole lot of stock in the institution of marriage, we should definitely figure out what’s going on and address problems where they exist. But we should also explore the possibility that the definition of family, parenting, and male-female relationships is evolving because the old definitions are inadequate for some reason. Instead of automatically seeing that as a problem, we should look at the reasons these old definitions may _need_ some tweaking. Tradition is not always the arbiter of what is right. ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/100 "2006-01-23T19:44:38Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > [Undoubtedly.](http://www.snopes.com/racial/business/tropical.asp) Thank you for that. I grew up during this period, and it’s good to get the facts behind it. That said, in my experience, more African Americans are likely to believe in conspiracy theories like this (or AIDS as a man made weapon, etc.) because of real historical events. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566.md?page=6)