# Do blacks really have 70% illigitimate births? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 18, 2006, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566 "2006-01-18T22:40:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/101 "2006-01-23T21:19:26Z")
> [@Stonebow](#): > > btw- I agree with sqweels on this point, a large reason why birth control efforts have failed is because, quite often, the push is made by people that would just rather see fewer black people. Uh, my point is that this is a load of paranoia. The backlash to Tuskeegee is vastly out of proportion and has led to massive distrust of the medical professions by blacks (I’ve read in TIME that makers of drugs tailored to suits blacks’ physiology are having trouble test marketing their products to the community due to this mistrust). Contraceptive use should be promoted from every pulpit. And while banning taxpayer funding for abortion may be a neccessary compromise (like pro-lifers want to compromise), I can’t think of a more cost-effective investment of tax dollars. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/102 "2006-01-23T22:55:20Z")
Unmarried mothers does not equal a failure of contraception or non-use or even necessarily single parenthood: Black teens have a significantly lower birth rate than in years past, even though the unmarried mother rate has not decreased. Meanwhile the Hispanic teen birth rate is quite high, while the unmarried mother rate is fairly low. Blacks are apparently using contraceptives, and Hispanics are using them less often. Births can be to married couples and raised by single parents in short order and unmarried couples can be quite committed to each other and to the child. The issue for society is the fluidity of families and the lack of fathers in kids lives. Married or not at birth, divorced or not soon after, are the dads around and involved? No extended matriarchy will replace the importance of Dad. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/103 "2006-01-23T23:18:14Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The issue for society is the fluidity of families and the lack of fathers in kids lives. Married or not at birth, divorced or not soon after, are the dads around and involved? No extended matriarchy will replace the importance of Dad. I expect you’re going to get some feedback on that statement…but I agree wholeheartedly. I’ve been sloppy, and using “illegitimacy” as a synonym for single-parenthood, when the two are by no means interchangeable. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/104 "2006-01-23T23:36:13Z")
Well I’ve tried to answer my own question and found [this resource.](http://www.urban.org/publications/310670.html) > [@](#): > > While there are no statistically significant race or ethnic differences in the proportion of poor infants who live with a single mother and an uninvolved father, infants with highly involved fathers experience father-involvement through different living arrangements. Nonblack infants primarily experience father involvement through marriage, while black infants primarily do so through fragile-visiting arrangements. Thus, roughly 40 percent of poor nonblack infants live in married families, and between 20 and 26 percent live in fragile families. By contrast, marriage is a rare experience for poor black infants, but living in fragile-visiting families is quite common; fully 45 percent of these infants do so. > > TABLE 3. Living Arrangements of Poor Infants by Race and Ethnicity, 1999 > White Hispanic Black > Married 40.8 36.1 3.1\* > Divorced-visiting 3.9 2.3 5.4 > Fragile-cohabitating 13.1 13.2 7.9 > Fragile-visiting 7.9 13.1 45.0\* > Single mother 31.8 33.2 31.5 > Other 2.5 2.2 7.0 > Source: The 1999 National Survey of America’s Families. > \*Difference from white children is statistically significant at the 90 percent confidence level or higher. > \ > Black children are much less likely than nonblack children to live with both of their natural parents because so few of their parents marry or cohabit. Instead, fragile-visiting families are a uniquely important arrangement by which poor black children have frequent contact with both of their parents. Thus, as we move from younger to older nonblack children, father involvement diminishes because the parents of older nonblack children are more likely to be divorced or separated, which leads to single parenting and divorced-visiting arrangements. As we move from younger to older black children, however, father involvement diminishes because the parents of older black children are much less likely than the parents of young black children to maintain their visiting arrangements. (“Fragile” includes unmarried but living together and unmarried and Dad visits at least weekly.) The site makes some specific policy recommendations and critiques. For factoids on the importance of father involvement see [The National Fatherhood Initiative.](http://fatherhood.org/fatherfacts_spl.asp) ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/105 "2006-01-24T17:33:33Z")
> [@](#): > > No extended matriarchy will replace the importance of Dad. Couldn’t agree more. Women should make damn sure that the dad is going to stick around before considering giving birth. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/106 "2006-01-24T18:27:19Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Couldn’t agree more. Women should make damn sure that the dad is going to stick around before considering giving birth. And at the same time, more fathers should stick around after the mothers of their children give birth. Period. If the fundamental problem is that fathers aren’t taking care of their children, why the nonstop harping on the mothers? Now I understand that women are the vessels in which the child comes to the world and therefore have control that men don’t have by virture of biology, but men still have the power to use birth control and practice responsible sex, dammit. Most importantly, though, _they have the power to step up and take care of their children!_ If the absence of dad is the main problem, why treat them as if they are incidental to the underlying issue? This attitude is partially what is responsible for the problem. It gives men the power to walk away because they don’t have to personalize the issue, like women do. Just curious: Would you tell divorced single mothers the exact same advice that you tell the never-been-married single mothers? At what point would you feel it is necessary to preach to the men? ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/107 "2006-01-24T18:36:49Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > And at the same time, more fathers should stick around after the mothers of their children give birth. Period. > > If the fundamental problem is that fathers aren’t taking care of their children, why the nonstop harping on the mothers? Now I understand that women are the vessels in which the child comes to the world and therefore have control that men don’t have by virture of biology… For those very reasons you cite. Women have choices – who to have sex with, what birth control they use, and what to do if they get pregnant. Men have many choices, too, but ultimately the decision as to what to do with a pregnancy lies with the woman. > [@](#): > > Just curious: Would you tell divorced single mothers the exact same advice that you tell the never-been-married single mothers? Probably not; a divorced mother is one who tried to make a two-parent relationship work. That it failed may not be her fault. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/108 "2006-01-24T19:04:50Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > For those very reasons you cite. Women have choices – who to have sex with, what birth control they use, and what to do if they get pregnant. Men have many choices, too, but ultimately the decision as to what to do with a pregnancy lies with the woman. Yeah, but two out of three is hardly nothing to sneeze at. In fact, if more diligence was given to just the first choice you mentioned _by both parties_, we probably wouldn’t even have to have to this discussion. And yet, we keep focusing on only one half of the equation. ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/109 "2006-01-24T20:12:45Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > Yeah, but two out of three is hardly nothing to sneeze at. In fact, if more diligence was given to just the first choice you mentioned _by both parties_, we probably wouldn’t even have to have to this discussion. And yet, we keep focusing on only one half of the equation. Well, what are the disincentives for men (African-American or otherwise) to hold up their end when it comes to reproductive responsibility? If women are content to allow men to impregnate them and have little or no part in the raising of a child- as seems to be the case here- why would a man care, especially when there is a large pool of these women available? Unlimited potential for sex, no commitment (financially or emotionally), and the respect of his peers for his prowess. Again, what are the disadvantages to this on a personal level? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/110 "2006-01-24T20:48:01Z")
> [@Stonebow](#): > > If women are content to allow men to impregnate them and have little or no part in the raising of a child- as seems to be the case here- why would a man care, especially when there is a large pool of these women available? Unlimited potential for sex, no commitment (financially or emotionally), and the respect of his peers for his prowess. It seems that you are assuming that most single-mothers would prefer to do it alone. Cite, please? ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/111 "2006-01-24T21:43:53Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > It seems that you are assuming that most single-mothers would prefer to do it alone. Cite, please? Well, in the scope of this thread (black Americans) we have a few options. Either the rates of ‘illegitimate’ children are a reflection of a population wide inability to make good mating decisions, or else there are cultural factors at work that mitigate for what is, all things being equal, a less than optimal situation in which to raise a child. In this thread alone, we have heard several times of a ‘new trend’ in which fathers are less vital to family stability. I can understand what might lead fathers to accept this trend, given the freedom it allows. For moms, we’re left with either of the choices I listed above. Even if there isn’t approval of this model, the new trend that in family structure on a grand scale does speak to a tacit acceptance that this is how things are. I’m more concerned with what disincentives for this male behavior exist- but I suppose we talk about what disincentives there are for women to have babies while young, uneducated, and single. To me, living a comfortable, material, middle class life, the incentives are obvious- but they are obviously not enough in this case. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/112 "2006-01-25T01:47:44Z")
Among Black Americans this is hardly a “new trend.” Again the rate of births to unmarried Black Moms has hardly changed since 1990. The “trendiness” of it is more among other populations in America in which it is increasing significantly. And poor Black new Dads aim to be involved and maybe even plan on getting married to the new Mom someday. What seems to be specifically prevalent among poor Black Americans is the involvement model of unmarried non-cohabitating but frequently visiting involved new Dads. And long term it just does not maintain. Being a new Dad is stressful under the best of circumstances. Being a new Dad without a good job, which is often the case for the urban poor of any color or creed, is even worse. Without even the committment of living together, let alone marriage, it is just too easy to cut bait. So why do poor Black men and Black women who are both committed to the child and to each other and to some degree wanted a child (they know how to use contrtaception and are willing to do so, the decreasing rates of Black teen pregancy proves that there is no cultural barrier there) not live together if not marry each other? Anyone with some real insight, and not just WAGs? Has the long history of strong mother models and the generation or two having grown up without as frequent of strong and present father models, just made disenfranchised fathers the default position? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/113 "2006-01-25T04:11:16Z")
Oh man, now we’re bringing the Black Buck/oversexed black woman stereotype into things. let me repeat this: BLACK PEOPLE MAKE RATIONAL DECISIONS BASED ON WHAT SEEMS BEST FOR THEIR LIFE, JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. Not everyone’s dreams are of material success. Most of us want a comfortable middle class life. But most of us are also people who work jobs that allow us to surf the Internet at work. Today, that means delaying childbirth. In any case, we have a set of values (delay childbirth, get career) that fits our situation (mid-level office workers). Congratulations, you have justified your existence. But not everyone shares those values. Some people put having children above establishing a middle-class career. They would rather weight the risks of not having much of a career with the risks of not having kids (a very real risk- fertility drops after thirty and by forty having a kids can be a very extremely expensive and risky proposition even if it is possible- how many heartbroken career families do you know?) There are advantages to having kids in your early twenties- especially if you expect children to be the focus and primary joy in your life. As for choosing a mate- women aren’t psychic. And women can’t control men. I have no way of looking at a man and saying “that guy will stick around” and neither does anyone else. Men do have an obligation to take care of their kids- if they don’t why are we even having this conversations? Surly if you expected women to be solely responsible for kids you’d just let them get on with their lives and not worry about who their screwing or how many kids they are having. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/114 "2006-01-25T05:18:08Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > Oh man, now we’re bringing the Black Buck/oversexed black woman stereotype into things. let me repeat this: BLACK PEOPLE MAKE RATIONAL DECISIONS BASED ON WHAT SEEMS BEST FOR THEIR LIFE, JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. > > Not everyone’s dreams are of material success. Most of us want a comfortable middle class life. But most of us are also people who work jobs that allow us to surf the Internet at work. Today, that means delaying childbirth. In any case, we have a set of values (delay childbirth, get career) that fits our situation (mid-level office workers). Congratulations, you have justified your existence. > > But not everyone shares those values. Some people put having children above establishing a middle-class career. They would rather weight the risks of not having much of a career with the risks of not having kids (a very real risk- fertility drops after thirty and by forty having a kids can be a very extremely expensive and risky proposition even if it is possible- how many heartbroken career families do you know?) There are advantages to having kids in your early twenties- especially if you expect children to be the focus and primary joy in your life. > > As for choosing a mate- women aren’t psychic. And women can’t control men. I have no way of looking at a man and saying “that guy will stick around” and neither does anyone else. Men do have an obligation to take care of their kids- if they don’t why are we even having this conversations? Surly if you expected women to be solely responsible for kids you’d just let them get on with their lives and not worry about who their screwing or how many kids they are having. Black people – like everyone else – make decisions about their lives, but not necessarily rational ones. Some people make a conscious choice to forego a career so that they can have children when they’re young – children they’ll take care of, who will be the joy of their life. And some people like to sleep around, have kids they can’t or won’t take care of, and go out on Friday night. Lots of people are somewhere in between. Women aren’t psychic, and can never be completely positive a guy will stick around, but it’s possible to make educated guesses – it’s not like it’s a complete crap shoot. And a guy’s probably more likely to stick around if you’re married to him. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/115 "2006-01-25T05:41:19Z")
**even sven** , please show me where anyone made anything remotely similar to the stereotype that you accuse someone of. Cause I can’t find it. Stereotypes about males in general I can find. The fact is that poor Black Americans tend to more commonly opt for an arrangement of a frequently visiting new-Dad (who later visits less and less often or disappears from the picture entirely, despite his best intentions to stay involved) whereas socioeconomically matched Whites more often opt for marriage or cohabitiation (who to a somewhat lesser degree get divorces and have Dads of later decreased involvement and presence). You apparently atttribute this difference to rational decision making, each individual weighing the values of long-term economic advancement vs. immediate onset of being a parent. I’m with **Rodgers**. Few of us, of any group, are that methodical or explicitly rational in our decision making, nor do I believe that poor Blacks are that much less interested in material goods than are poor Whites, nor value the joy of early parenting that much higher. Nor does that explain why Blacks do not take the Hispanic solution of early marriage and many children if it is a rational choice of children over career. I can’t even count that as a WAG. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/116 "2006-01-25T07:29:55Z")
I’m sorry. I guess I’m a little overheated about this topic and I should bow out of the conversation. Clearly my feelings about this are too strong for me to debate rationally. ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/117 "2006-01-25T15:22:28Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The fact is that poor Black Americans tend to more commonly opt for an arrangement of a frequently visiting new-Dad (who later visits less and less often or disappears from the picture entirely, despite his best intentions to stay involved) whereas socioeconomically matched Whites more often opt for marriage or cohabitiation (who to a somewhat lesser degree get divorces and have Dads of later decreased involvement and presence). I found an interesting article on this phenomenon here. [http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi\_qa3634/is\_199811/ai\_n8808462](http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3634/is_199811/ai_n8808462) **even sven** , I hope that no one is this thread singled you out as some sort of tragic case or example of a bad family. In fact, I think it has been mentioned here that your case sounds like an exception that proves the rule re: families w/ absent fathers. Also, if I recall correctly, you are not a member of the demographic we’re discussing in this thread. I understand that family issues always hit close to the bone. But keep in mind that we are all (that I have observed) looking for a solution to this problem \*in the context \* of the African American community’s being disproportionately represented in objectively bad social trends. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/118 "2006-01-25T15:23:40Z")
What I find so incomprehensible – regardless of race, society’s standards, yada yada yada — it has been possibly for decades to separate sex and childbearing. You can sleep with someone who wouldn’t make a good father, with no consequences – if you use birth control. So why are there so many unplanned babies being born? ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/119 "2006-01-25T15:26:09Z")
Accidental pregnancies happen. Yes, men have a couple of cards in their hand–he can use condoms or he can go without sex altogether (yeah, that’s fair), but women have many more. Condoms are visible. Women have many more contraceptive options, the presence or absence of which is not always detectable by the man. And women have the power to choose abortion or adoption. The likely prospect of the man sticking around–or simply the couple’s marital status–should influence that choice. ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566/120 "2006-01-25T17:03:00Z")
**Debaser** If it is government subsidization of unwed motherhood that is the problem, then it should be trivial to demonstrate that countries that are generous with benefits for mothers have far higher out-of-wedlock/single mother birthrates than the US. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-blacks-really-have-70-illigitimate-births/340566.md?page=7)