# Do British vs American collective nouns affect Thought? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2009, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-british-vs-american-collective-nouns-affect-thought/517005 "2009-11-10T04:12:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-british-vs-american-collective-nouns-affect-thought/517005/1 "2009-11-10T04:12:17Z")
What an American says IBM does something, he says “it” does it–the amorphous hive mind of the corporation. When a Briton says IBM does something, he says “they” do it–the group of mortal humans that gather under the IBM banner. Do you think that this distinction in speech goes so far to affect people’s perceptions of these entities, and affect public discourse? ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-british-vs-american-collective-nouns-affect-thought/517005/2 "2009-11-10T04:20:57Z")
I wouldn’t think so. Also, the language is called “English” and it’s only in the American dialect that usages are notably different. Plenty of English speakers world-wide use what you’re referring to as “British” without being in any way Britons. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-british-vs-american-collective-nouns-affect-thought/517005/3 "2009-11-10T04:25:51Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > Do you think that this distinction in speech goes so far to affect people’s perceptions of these entities, Your question sounds similar to [Sapir\_Whorf hypothesis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapir_Whorf) ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-british-vs-american-collective-nouns-affect-thought/517005/4 "2009-11-10T04:32:50Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > What an American says IBM does something, he says “it” does it–the amorphous hive mind of the corporation. When a Briton says IBM does something, he says “they” do it–the group of mortal humans that gather under the IBM banner. Do you have any evidence that this is true? I’ve spent a lot of time speaking with and reading both Americans and Brits and I’ve never noticed this distinction. In both cases people say “they” when they want to refer to the people at IBM, and they say “it” when they want to refer to the institution. eg IBM’s Idaho office may have a non discrimination policy, but I don’t believe it hired any black people in the last year. IBM’s has a non-discrimination policy, and they have to attend workshops on cultural sensitivity. For example, [Google search for a a common British use of of “it”](http://www.google.co.in/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=Umi&q=%22the+bbc%2C+and+it%22+site%3A.uk&btnG=Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=), ~500, 000 uses. [US use of “they”](http://www.google.co.in/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=WU3&q=%22ibm%2C+and+their+partners%22&btnG=Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=), a little harder to do with clear results, but still over 80, 000 uses. So clearly neither use is restricted to either side of the pond. So do you have any evidence that there is any preference for the form used in either location? ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-british-vs-american-collective-nouns-affect-thought/517005/5 "2009-11-10T05:00:53Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Do you have any evidence that this is true? I’ve spent a lot of time speaking with and reading both Americans and Brits and I’ve never noticed this distinction. In both cases people say “they” when they want to refer to the people at IBM, and they say “it” when they want to refer to the institution. I’ve heard it in a few places, but hopefully [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_differences#Formal_and_notional_agreement) is good enough, at least for now: > [@](#): > > In BrE, collective nouns can take either singular (formal agreement) or plural (notional agreement) verb forms, according to whether the emphasis is, respectively, on the body as a whole or on the individual members; compare _a committee was appointed…_ with \*the committee were unable to agree…\*The term the Government always takes a plural verb in British civil service convention… > > In AmE, collective nouns are usually singular in construction: _the committee was unable to agree…_ AmE however may use plural pronouns in agreement with collective nouns: _the team take their seats_, _rather than the team takes its seats_. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-british-vs-american-collective-nouns-affect-thought/517005/6 "2009-11-10T05:45:39Z")
> [@waterj2](#): > > I’ve heard it in a few places, but hopefully [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_differences#Formal_and_notional_agreement) is good enough, at least for now: Well that just agrees with what I said. In British usage the form depends on whether you refer to the organisation or the individuals in it. So When a Briton says IBM does something, he wouldn’t says “they” do it unless he meant some specific member s of the organisation. Otherwise he would say “it”. Similarly, it says that the noun is usually singular in American. My personal experience (and the Google links above) suggests that it is nowhere near as clear cut as the Wikipedia article makes out. Americans do routinely use “they”, English do regularly use “it”. Hard to see how such a vague distinction could have any serious effects. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-british-vs-american-collective-nouns-affect-thought/517005/7 "2009-11-10T11:09:54Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Well that just agrees with what I said. In British usage the form depends on whether you refer to the organisation or the individuals in it. So When a Briton says IBM does something, he wouldn’t says “they” do it unless he meant some specific member s of the organisation. Otherwise he would say “it”. Sorry, as a Brit I can’t say I agree with that. Whenever a American uses the singular to describe an entity that consists of many people it always jars with me. Good examples are music groups and sports teams. ---
**Author:** ![Damfino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Damfino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damfino)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-british-vs-american-collective-nouns-affect-thought/517005/8 "2009-11-10T12:21:34Z")
“The Giants is dead.” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-british-vs-american-collective-nouns-affect-thought/517005/9 "2009-11-10T13:47:33Z")
“The Maple Leafs is a well-established team.” - just throwing in the Canadian perspective. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-british-vs-american-collective-nouns-affect-thought/517005/10 "2009-11-10T14:42:57Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Well that just agrees with what I said. In British usage the form depends on whether you refer to the organisation or the individuals in it. So When a Briton says IBM does something, he wouldn’t says “they” do it unless he meant some specific member s of the organisation. Otherwise he would say “it”. Regrettably, this is not entirely correct. It’s a bit more nuanced than that. If you listen to the radio, for example, the collective noun is used almost exclusively when referring to companies, organisations, governments, etc. “The government are…” is the default usage. Just ten minutes ago I corrected an announcement for my website written by someone else that said “[Company name] are releasing a new product…” This is best illustrated by the brilliant piece of graffiti on the Oxford ring road (forgive me for repeating myself - I’ve posted this before in the past): The sign originally said SWINDON↑ but some wag had added to it so that it read: **SWINDON** **IS/ARE SHIT** It’s immediately obvious to most Brits what this means. Explanation: Oxford United Football Club has an ongoing rivalry with Swindon Town Football Club - that’s the “ARE”. And Swindon is a rather disappointing town near Oxford - that’s the “IS”.