# Do Burglars Deserve The Right To Sue Us If They Get Hurt While Robbing Us **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2003, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-burglars-deserve-the-right-to-sue-us-if-they-get-hurt-while-robbing-us/197942 "2003-08-27T10:40:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-burglars-deserve-the-right-to-sue-us-if-they-get-hurt-while-robbing-us/197942/41 "2003-08-27T15:21:30Z")
**EvilCaptor** wrote: > [@](#): > > This sounds like the usual half-assed bling bling that conservatives use to form their opinions. Damn you’ve got some mighty arms to swing that brush!! **yojimbo** wrote: > [@](#): > > killing burglar who was no longer in the house and running away (the kid was shot in the back) after walking into the trap set up by Martin I’m sorry, that’s false. Fearon and Barras were shot at inside the home. Barras crawled out the window and died in the yard. ---
**Author:** ![magicman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@magicman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magicman)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-burglars-deserve-the-right-to-sue-us-if-they-get-hurt-while-robbing-us/197942/42 "2003-08-27T15:44:16Z")
My thread seems to have got a lot of people going, there have been a lot of good posts and this is a quote from one of them > [@](#): > > I’d rather take the risk that a burglar is harmed than take the risk that my wife or child is harmed This pretty much sums it up, we want to protect our family, our posessions and our home, we don’t know if the burglar is going to attack us, by the time we know if they will it will probably be too late, so we must take action before they have the chance. ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-burglars-deserve-the-right-to-sue-us-if-they-get-hurt-while-robbing-us/197942/43 "2003-08-27T15:57:48Z")
**margin** wrote: > [@](#): > > Isn’t there the duty to retreat in the US? I’ve heard that one is required to retreat as far as possible from the intruder and only then is one allowed to use deadly force. But I’ve also heard that one is not required to do so in one’s home. Definitely varies by state and jurisdiction. IIRC, many CCW classes teach retreat in order to show unavoidable just cause, even though it may not be required by law. Some states, like South Carolina, give the homeowner the green light for deadly force. ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-burglars-deserve-the-right-to-sue-us-if-they-get-hurt-while-robbing-us/197942/44 "2003-08-27T15:59:01Z")
Oh, forgot to add, …give the homeowner the green light for deadly force, _when the intruder has entered the domicile._ ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-burglars-deserve-the-right-to-sue-us-if-they-get-hurt-while-robbing-us/197942/45 "2003-08-27T16:30:06Z")
As plenty of people have pointed out, suing is one thing, and actually winning the case is another altogether. I notice that **december** , true to form, drives by with an alleged “cite,” and implies that “maybe crime does pay.” But when it is pointed out that all his cite tells us is that people sued, not that they were successful, he has nothing to add. And, as **London Calling** says, civil suits and criminal trials are two totally different animals. Also, in terms of right and wrong, too many people adopt a black-and-white attitude to cases like this. They assume that just because the burglar is breaking the law and is in the wrong (something we all agree on, i’m sure), then someone who kills the burglar must therefore be in the right. Sorry folks, doesn’t work that way. While defending yourself from what you reasonably believe to be am imminent threat is a reasonable thing to do, shooting someone in the back as they are leaving and no longer posing a threat is not, in my opinion. Sure, some semanticists might argue that they would still feel threatened, but i think that a reasonable rule of thumb is that if someone is running away from you, then they no longer pose a direct threat, unless they are obviously making for a weapon of some sort. Shooting someone who’s bolting out a window is more like a cowardly act of revenge than an act of self-defence, i think, and just reduces the shooter to the level of the burglar. The farmer in the case in England managed to get his sentence reduced after arguing that “paranoid personality disorder which diminished his responsibility” and that he “had suffered sexual abuse as a child.” Diminished capacity arguments such as this seem most often to be made in cases where the actions themselves are admitted to be wrong, and the defendant and lawyer are seeking another way to beat the rap. As for the OP’s example of a burglar unwittingly trapped in a house, i certainly hope such a person would not only get locked up for robbery, but that they would have no luck whatsoever in suing the householder. And, despite the OP’s suggestion that “these criminals can win a case against someone who is defending their home,” we have yet to see any evidence supporting this claim. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-burglars-deserve-the-right-to-sue-us-if-they-get-hurt-while-robbing-us/197942/46 "2003-08-27T16:30:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BF \* > > I’m sorry, that’s false. Fearon and Barras were shot at inside the home. Barras crawled out the window and died in the yard. \*\* I stand corrected. They were trying to leave though. > [@](#): > > When his trial began in April 2000 Martin argued that he had genuinely been acting in self-defence. > > But it emerged the pair had been shot as they tried to flee through a window. from the above BBC link ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-burglars-deserve-the-right-to-sue-us-if-they-get-hurt-while-robbing-us/197942/47 "2003-08-27T18:04:57Z")
> [@](#): > > **margin said:** > Isn’t there the duty to retreat in the US? I’ve heard that one is required to retreat as far as possible from the intruder and only then is one allowed to use deadly force. But I’ve also heard that one is not required to do so in one’s home. I was advised by the Deputy Sheriff of Washington County Pennslyvania on the day that I received my License to Carry Concealed Firearms that Pennsylvania has no such thing as a ‘last locked room’ or ‘retreat’ provision. Under the law of the commonwealth the assumption is that anyone who illegally enters my home while it is occupied constitutes a risk to life and limb and deadly force is not prohibted. He went so far as to say that we should _never, ever_ shoot to wound. He explained that, should we ever draw on an attacker of any kind, we were to fire no warning shots and aim for the center of the chest. Shooting to deliberately wound (hand or leg shot) would be an indicator that the licensee did not believe deadly force was warranted, and thus _we were not even justified in having drawn the gun._ When I found myself faced with a burglar, he turned and fled as soon as I drew. Shooting someone in the back as they are fleeing is not self defense, and thus I would have been charged. Recently in that same county, [this incident](http://www.post-gazette.com/neigh_washington/20021119crash1119p5.asp) involved a man who found an intruder in his house choking his son. The homeowner beat the intruder to death with a baseball bat. No charges were ever filed, and although the article doesn’t indicate it, this was big local news (happened mere miles from my house), and James Liermann was never arrested. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-burglars-deserve-the-right-to-sue-us-if-they-get-hurt-while-robbing-us/197942/48 "2003-08-27T18:27:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mhendo \* > As plenty of people have pointed out, suing is one thing, and actually winning the case is another altogether. I notice that **december** , true to form, drives by with an alleged “cite,” and implies that “maybe crime does pay.” But when it is pointed out that all his cite tells us is that people sued, not that they were successful, he has nothing to add. Exactly. I read the first 10 or so of the cases December cited before I got bored and gave up. Only one case referred to an actual award to a plaintiff whose injuries (in this case, death) were a result of his illegal activity, and that was a case where the defendant has deliberately set a booby-trap designed to kill intruders. The rest were either simple references to lawsuits FILED, or lawsuits for injuries unrelated to criminal activity. It astounds me that people continue to cite LAWSUITS FILED as evidence of a legal system supposedly run amok, while ignoring the fact that anyone can FILE a lawsuit. Filing a lawsuit does not mean you will win the lawsuit. And these people never offer an alternative; they just bitch about the legal system. Well, how exactly would we solve the problem? Ban ALL lawsuits? - that’s obviously stupid. Only ban unmeritorious lawsuits? - how exactly does one evalute the merits of a lawsuit without ever seeing it? Apparently we need a time machine so that we can go back and retroactively ban lawsuits _after_ we have determined their worth.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-burglars-deserve-the-right-to-sue-us-if-they-get-hurt-while-robbing-us/197942/49 "2003-08-27T19:29:20Z")
> [@](#): > > BTW do the PM, the Queen, and top entertainers use armed guards in the UK? You’ve never seen the Changing of the Guard? 😛 Despite that, there’s been parachutists and allsorts who have landed in the grounds of Buckingham Palace over the years and who never got run through by a guard’s sabre. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-burglars-deserve-the-right-to-sue-us-if-they-get-hurt-while-robbing-us/197942/50 "2003-08-27T19:42:08Z")
I think the SAS takes a little more active role nowadays ever since some lunatic snuck into the Queen’s bedchamber a few years back. At least I think that really happened. It might just be something I read in a Tom Clancy novel. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-burglars-deserve-the-right-to-sue-us-if-they-get-hurt-while-robbing-us/197942/51 "2003-08-27T22:56:51Z")
Really depends on the State and the locality. We’ve had a number of break-in/dead robbers in my area and the local police have done everything except award a medal for community service. I’ve “heard” from defence lawyers that this is NOT the case in other parts of the state. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-burglars-deserve-the-right-to-sue-us-if-they-get-hurt-while-robbing-us/197942/52 "2003-08-28T14:07:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by magicman \* > \*\*I have seen loads of stories about people defending their home from burglars, often resulting in the burglar getting injured, the culprit then goes on to sue the home owner for damages. But there are also many examples where the burglar is not injurede at all, one of these examples was;- a family went on holiday and whilst they were away for the week someone broke into their house, from the house there was a door into the garage, the criminal went into the garage but the door back into the house locked itself, trapping the burglar inside the garage until the family got back, when they discovered him he fled and then sued them, beacuse he got trapped in their garage. > … > I cannot give you a source for that information, i heard it from a police officer who came into my school and talked to us,i raised the same question i have here and she discussed it with us and gave that example. > > He won a lot of money,i don’t know what grounds he sued on, it shouldn’t matter, he was is in the wrong, the family weren’t even there so they did nothing wrong.\*\* [Urban Legend](http://www.snopes.com/legal/lawsuits.htm), according to [Snopes](http://www.snopes.com): > [@](#): > > 1. October 1998: A Terrence Dickson of Bristol Pennsylvania was exiting a house he finished robbing by way of the garage. He was not able to get the garage door to go up, because the automatic door opener was malfunctioning. He couldn’t re-enter the house because the door connecting the house and garage locked when he pulled it shut. The family was on vacation, so Mr. Dickson found himself locked in the garage for eight days. He subsisted on a case of Pepsi he found, and a large bag of dry dog food. This upset Mr. Dickson, so he sued the homeowner’s insurance claiming the situation caused him undue mental anguish. The jury agreed to the tune of half a million dollars and change. This was one of a half dozen similar stories about tort law run amuck. Snopes’s verdict: “All of the entries in the list are fabrications – a search for news stories about each of these cases failed to turn up anything, as did a search for each law case.” I appreciate that there is a substantive question of legal policy here, but let’s not use gossip as the basis for deciding it. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-burglars-deserve-the-right-to-sue-us-if-they-get-hurt-while-robbing-us/197942/53 "2003-08-28T14:24:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BF \* > **EvilCaptor wrote: > Damn you’ve got some mighty arms to swing that brush!!** Thank you. I do in fact have mighty arms. And looking at all the supposedly factual posts that have either been demonstrated to be UL or suits filed but no awards made, I’d say a broad brush was CALLED FOR in this instance. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-burglars-deserve-the-right-to-sue-us-if-they-get-hurt-while-robbing-us/197942/54 "2003-08-28T17:06:32Z")
December summed it up well. If there’s an intruder in the house you have to first think about your own and your loved one’s safety. If you kill that intruder you know what the chance of that intruder harming anyone is? 0. They may try to get away and somewhere in the ruckus change thier mind and decide to come back at you. Or they may not find an immediate enough exit and come back at you. Or they may be looking for a weapon to use against you. Or there may be another intruder in the house you don’t know about. There are many scenarios that could get you or your family killed. You must shave the odds quickly and decisively. Killing someone is a harsh reality to live with. But the idea is to be around to live with it. Most of us go through life respecting others and living honest lives. It might sound harsh, then again no it doesn’t, but we deserve to live more than a lowlife who would harm us for money or property. Fortunately here in Texas we have the right to carry and we have the right to use deadly force to protect ourselves and our property. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-burglars-deserve-the-right-to-sue-us-if-they-get-hurt-while-robbing-us/197942/55 "2003-08-28T17:50:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Northern Piper \* > \*\* Snopes’s verdict: “All of the entries in the list are fabrications – a search for news stories about each of these cases failed to turn up anything, as did a search for each law case.” > > I appreciate that there is a substantive question of legal policy here, but let’s not use gossip as the basis for deciding it. \*\* Exactly. And it’s not like the stories are old ones, lost in the mists of the pre-internet era. It was 1998, ferchrissakes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-burglars-deserve-the-right-to-sue-us-if-they-get-hurt-while-robbing-us/197942.md?page=2)