# Do Canada and Australia have titled nobility? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 29, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-canada-and-australia-have-titled-nobility/580183 "2011-04-29T17:08:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RenMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecb155/32.png) [@RenMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RenMan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-canada-and-australia-have-titled-nobility/580183/1 "2011-04-29T17:08:33Z")
Since Canada and Australia are both still monarchies, with Queen Elizabeth II as their Head of State, do they also have local titled nobility? Is there a Duke of Melbourne, or a Count of Toronto? ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-canada-and-australia-have-titled-nobility/580183/2 "2011-04-29T17:28:28Z")
Ever since [the Nickle resolution](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_titles_debate#The_Nickle_Resolution) I’m sure it’s against the law for a Canadian to have such a thing. Just ask Conrad Black. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-canada-and-australia-have-titled-nobility/580183/3 "2011-04-29T17:44:58Z")
The only existing Canadian noble title is Baron de Longueuil, which was granted by the King of France before the French and Indian War. In 1919, the Canadian government adopted the Nickle Resolution, basically asking the crown not to grant titles or knighthoods on Canadian citizens, and for the most part, the crown hasn’t, and while there are and were a few Canadian peers (the most notable probably being Lord Beaverbrook, and the most controversial being Conrad Black, whose fight with Chretien over the peerage led to him renouncing his Canadian citizenship), it’s not common. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-canada-and-australia-have-titled-nobility/580183/4 "2011-04-29T17:54:22Z")
There are no Australian peers. Never have been, to the best of my knowledge, and I’m an Aus history nerd. There are a few titled Australians who have inherited English titles, but as for “Duke of Melbourne” and the like; no, never. Unless you count [His Majesty Prince Leonard I of Hutt](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutt_River_Province), and his missus, Her Royal Highness Princess Shirley of Hutt, Dame of the Rose of Sharon. ---
**Author:** ![RenMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecb155/32.png) [@RenMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RenMan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-canada-and-australia-have-titled-nobility/580183/5 "2011-04-29T18:01:26Z")
Shakester, I have to contradict you, unfortunately. Now that I know where to start looking, I found some interesting information. There _was_ in fact a Viscount of Melbourne, [according to](http://www.nma.gov.au/education/school_resources/websites_and_interactives/primeministers/stanley_bruce/) the National Museum of Australia. According to Wikipedia (I have not checked the cites), [other Australians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_peers) have in the past received British peerages, but that was stopped in 1975. But basically, it appears that no one ever tried to set up anything like a feudal land ownership structures in these former colonies (dukedoms, baronies, and such…) ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-canada-and-australia-have-titled-nobility/580183/6 "2011-04-29T18:18:06Z")
> [@RenMan](#): > > Shakester, I have to contradict you, unfortunately. Now that I know where to start looking, I found some interesting information. > > There _was_ in fact a Viscount of Melbourne, [according to](http://www.nma.gov.au/education/school_resources/websites_and_interactives/primeministers/stanley_bruce/) the National Museum of Australia. According to Wikipedia (I have not checked the cites), [other Australians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_peers) have in the past received British peerages, but that was stopped in 1975. > > But basically, it appears that no one ever tried to set up anything like a feudal land ownership structures in these former colonies (dukedoms, baronies, and such…) Interesting, and news to me. But only a handful. The Viscount of Melbourne was the only one that referred to an Australian place, the others seem to be Brit titles awarded to Australians. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-canada-and-australia-have-titled-nobility/580183/7 "2011-04-29T20:24:09Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The only existing Canadian noble title is Baron de Longueuil, which was granted by the King of France before the French and Indian War. No, there’s also the [Baron Strathcona and Mount Royal of Mount Royal in the Province of Quebec and Dominion of Canada](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_Strathcona_and_Mount_Royal), i.e. Donald Smith, a significant figure in the early history of the Dominion. However, he moved back to the UK on his retirement and none of the subsequent Barons Strathcona and Mount Royal have lived in Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-canada-and-australia-have-titled-nobility/580183/8 "2011-04-29T20:27:44Z")
Oh, and there was also [Viscount Bennett, of Mickleham in the County of Surrey and of Calgary and Hopewell in the Dominion of Canada](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscount_Bennett#Coat_of_arms). Note, however, that both of these were peerages of the United Kingdom, that referred to places in Canada. There is no separate Canadian peerage. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-canada-and-australia-have-titled-nobility/580183/9 "2011-04-29T20:29:01Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > Interesting, and news to me. But only a handful. The Viscount of Melbourne was the only one that referred to an Australian place, the others seem to be Brit titles awarded to Australians. Wasn’t Melbourne named after him instead of him being granted a title referencing the city? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-canada-and-australia-have-titled-nobility/580183/10 "2011-04-29T20:47:09Z")
The [City of Melbourne](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melbourne_(Australia)) was named after [Viscount Melbourne, Prime Minister of the UK.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lamb,_2nd_Viscount_Melbourne). However, the title of the former Australian Prime Minister was “Viscount Bruce of Melbourne .” I think he would be properly referred to as “Viscount Bruce,” not “Viscount of Melbourne.” ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-canada-and-australia-have-titled-nobility/580183/11 "2011-05-01T03:04:17Z")
According to the tour guid, I think it was Stirling Castle (may have ben Edinburgh?) where James i/vi created a small strip of Nova Scotia to create the baron of Nova Scotia (since apparently he had to be invested in his own barony). Nobody seems to consider this real any more. Conrad Black wanted to buy a lordship from the British government. Since he was the Canadian equivlent of Rush Limbaugh/Glen Beck, but with pretentious vocabulary, the prime minister he’d been annoying (Chretien) made a point of invoking the Nickle resolution to prevent it. Black gave up his Canadian citizenship to get the title, his second not-so-bright move. Now that he’s doing time in the USA for business shennanigans, he wants to come back to Canada when he’s out. What are the odds? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-canada-and-australia-have-titled-nobility/580183/12 "2011-05-01T03:41:48Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Ever since [the Nickle resolution](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_titles_debate#The_Nickle_Resolution) I’m sure it’s against the law for a Canadian to have such a thing. > > Just ask Conrad Black. It’s not against the law; Conrad Black was just impatient. He would be a life peer _and_ a Canadian if he had just waited for Tony Blair and Jean Chretien to work out their tiff. It was purely a diplomatic issue, not a legal issue. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2011, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-canada-and-australia-have-titled-nobility/580183/13 "2011-05-01T13:00:00Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > According to the tour guid, I think it was Stirling Castle (may have ben Edinburgh?) where James i/vi created a small strip of Nova Scotia to create the baron of Nova Scotia (since apparently he had to be invested in his own barony). Nobody seems to consider this real any more. > > Conrad Black wanted to buy a lordship from the British government. Since he was the Canadian equivlent of Rush Limbaugh/Glen Beck, but with pretentious vocabulary, the prime minister he’d been annoying (Chretien) made a point of invoking the Nickle resolution to prevent it. Black gave up his Canadian citizenship to get the title, his second not-so-bright move. Now that he’s doing time in the USA for business shennanigans, he wants to come back to Canada when he’s out. What are the odds? As a convicted felon and non-citizen the odds ought to be 0, but I bet he has enough friends in the coming Conservative government to get back in. And he is not a Canadian Rush Limbaugh. I can’t stand him, but he wrote a well-reviewed biography of FDR (no, I haven’t read it). FWIW, the former president of Latvia was forced to renounce her Canadian citizenship to take up that post. But she was told that she could get back in a week. Of course, she is not a convicted felon. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-canada-and-australia-have-titled-nobility/580183/14 "2011-05-02T14:26:57Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > It’s not against the law; Conrad Black was just impatient. He would be a life peer _and_ a Canadian if he had just waited for Tony Blair and Jean Chretien to work out their tiff. It was purely a diplomatic issue, not a legal issue. The issue was that Conrad owned and directed the National Post, a very conservative rag that spent its time attacking Chretien’s Libera government. The same government that would had the right to veto a title to a Canadian citizen. I don’t think there was anything to work out, except wait for Chretien to retire. Chretien was old school politics and knew how to carry a grudge. (in this case, I approve). Not sure how Paul Martin (his successor as PM) would have carried on… Presumably once the objection was entered, the brits would have kept doing as requested by the Canadians. ---
**Author:** ![A.Gwilliam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@A.Gwilliam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Gwilliam)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-canada-and-australia-have-titled-nobility/580183/15 "2011-05-03T00:56:48Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Ever since [the Nickle resolution](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_titles_debate#The_Nickle_Resolution) I’m sure it’s against the law for a Canadian to have such a thing. Nope. Resolutions passed by either house (or even both houses) of the Canadian parliament are not legislative. In the seventeenth century, both Maryland and Nova Scotia, and I think nominally also Newfoundland under one of its numerous charters, had some sort of formal colonial aristocracy. In the eighteenth century, either the Quebec Act, or the legislation setting up Lower Canada and Upper Canada (I forget which) apparently made provision for the creation of colonial hereditary peerages; but this was never acted upon. In a number of African and Pacific colonies/protectorates, certain local or regional chiefs were given seats in the relevant legislature _ex officio_. I think that’s about it so far as the British Empire/Commonwealth is concerned. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-canada-and-australia-have-titled-nobility/580183/16 "2011-05-03T10:09:51Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > The [City of Melbourne](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melbourne_(Australia)) was named after [Viscount Melbourne, Prime Minister of the UK.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lamb,_2nd_Viscount_Melbourne). > > However, the title of the former Australian Prime Minister was “Viscount Bruce of Melbourne .” I think he would be properly referred to as “Viscount Bruce,” not “Viscount of Melbourne.” All Australian politicians should be called Bruce, to avoid confusion. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-canada-and-australia-have-titled-nobility/580183/17 "2011-05-03T11:47:47Z")
> [@A.Gwilliam](#): > > In the seventeenth century, both Maryland and Nova Scotia, and I think nominally also Newfoundland under one of its numerous charters, had some sort of formal colonial aristocracy. See section VI of the [Constitutional Act, 1791](http://www.solon.org/Constitutions/Canada/English/PreConfederation/ca_1791.html): > [@](#): > > VI. And be it further enacted by the Authority aforesaid, That whenever his Majesty, his Heirs or Successors, shall think proper to confer upon any Subject of the Crown of Great Britain, by Letters Patent under the Great Seal of either of the said Provinces, any hereditary Title of Honour, Rank, or Dignity of such Province, descendible according to any Course of Descent limited in such Letters Patent, it shall and may be lawful for his Majesty, his Heirs or Successors, to annex thereto, by the said Letters Patent, if his Majesty, his Heirs or Successors, shall so think fit, an hereditary Right of being summoned to the Legislative Council of such Province, descendible according to the Course of Descent so limited with respect to such Title, Rank, or Dignity; and that every Person on whom such Right shall be so conferred, or to whom such Right shall severally so descend, shall thereupon be entitled to demand from the Governor, Lieutenant Governor, or Person administering the Government of such Province, his Writ of Summons to such Legislative Council, at any Time after shall have attained the Age of twenty one Years, subject nevertheless to the Provisions herein-after contained. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-canada-and-australia-have-titled-nobility/580183/18 "2011-05-03T12:10:14Z")
for completion it should be mentioned that we do have “the order of Australia” which makes you a Knight or Dame (and addressed as “sir blahblah” or “dame blahblahblah”. These are not hereditary titles however, and are no longer awarded. > **[Order of Australia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Australia)** > > The Order of Australia is an honour that recognises Australian citizens and other persons for outstanding achievement and service. It was established on 14 February 1975 by Elizabeth II, Queen of Australia, on the advice of the Australian Government. Before the establishment of the order, Australian citizens received British honours. > The Monarch of Australia is sovereign head of the order, while the Governor-General of Australia is the principal companion/dame/knight (as relevant at the time)... ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-canada-and-australia-have-titled-nobility/580183/19 "2011-05-03T12:42:35Z")
> [@A.Gwilliam](#): > > Nope. Resolutions passed by either house (or even both houses) of the Canadian parliament are not legislative. I should clarify: It isn’t illegal, it’s merely frowned on. The Canadian government doesn’t want “the crown” to be giving honours to Canadians without their strict consent. Ultimately it’s a power/control thing. I suppose “the crown” **could** just go ahead and give honours without the consent of the Canadian government, but the royals aren’t so crass to ever do such a thing. Oh, my… /Wealthy dowager ---
**Author:** ![A.Gwilliam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@A.Gwilliam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Gwilliam)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-canada-and-australia-have-titled-nobility/580183/20 "2011-05-03T17:56:02Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > See section VI of the [Constitutional Act, 1791](http://www.solon.org/Constitutions/Canada/English/PreConfederation/ca_1791.html): Thanks for the citation. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-canada-and-australia-have-titled-nobility/580183.md?page=2)