# do casinos ban winners? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 3, 2003, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-ban-winners/192662 "2003-08-03T02:57:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-ban-winners/192662/1 "2003-08-03T02:57:44Z")
do ‘professional gamblers’ who consistently win without cheating get banned? what does it take to be banned from a casino? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-ban-winners/192662/2 "2003-08-03T03:02:31Z")
With the exception of poker and sports betting it is an impossiblilty to consistently with without cheating. Using card counting techniques in blackjack may not be techincally cheating but it is against the rules so you will get banned from a casino for doing it well enough to win. As for poker, the house makes money by taking a cut out of every pot so they don’t give a crap who wins so long as people keep playing. As for sports betting, the house just moves the line so that there are an equal number of people betting on each side. The house makes money on the penelty that the losers pay. It doesn’t matter at all if a few people are making a profit. Haj ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-ban-winners/192662/3 "2003-08-03T03:02:39Z")
Well, ANY type of cheating is going to get you banned, not only in that casino but every other casino. Isn’t it true that any business open to the public can refuse service to anyone at their own discretion? ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-ban-winners/192662/4 "2003-08-03T03:11:18Z")
so there aren’t any honest professional gamblers other than at poker and sports? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-ban-winners/192662/5 "2003-08-03T03:21:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by shijinn \* > \*\*so there aren’t any honest professional gamblers other than at poker and sports? \*\* No. It’s just that the odds are against you. Even if you play with the perfect stategy, the game is set-up so that you can’t win in the long run. I will give you an easy example. Let’s say we flip a coin. For every head, I give you $1.00. For every tail, you give me $1.02. After several thousand coin flips, is it possible for you to win without cheating? Every house game is set-up in the same way but the odds are more complicated. Haj ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-ban-winners/192662/6 "2003-08-03T03:41:13Z")
so the odds are against you, and even if you are consistently lucky they can ban you at their own discretion? casinos are _evil_ and how can they call themselves ‘professional gamblers’ if they don’t earn consistently? think i need a thesaurus or something ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-ban-winners/192662/7 "2003-08-03T03:50:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hajario \* > **Let’s say we flip a coin. For every head, I give you $1.00. For every tail, you give me $1.02.** But who gets the coin? ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-ban-winners/192662/8 "2003-08-03T04:05:30Z")
In my experience professional gamblers don’t play “house” games, they play the sports books and poker. I think you are better off playing financial securities than any other “gambling”. IMHO of course. ---
**Author:** ![Doomtrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Doomtrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doomtrain)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-ban-winners/192662/9 "2003-08-03T04:27:53Z")
If you want to know what happens to card counters, there’s a fine book out called “Bringing Down The House.” They’re frequently “invited” to not come back. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-ban-winners/192662/10 "2003-08-03T04:28:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ccwaterback \* > \*\*Isn’t it true that any business open to the public can refuse service to anyone at their own discretion? \*\* No, it isn’t true. For just one example, remember that Lester Maddox closed down his Atlanta restaurant so that he would not have to meet the legal requirement to serve negro customers. ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-ban-winners/192662/11 "2003-08-03T05:09:15Z")
So the signs I have seen in the entrance ways to many bars and restaurants that states, “We reserve the right to refuse service to any potential customer”, is illegal? Wow, next time I see one of those signs I am going to tell them to take it down because they are breaking the law. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-ban-winners/192662/12 "2003-08-03T05:14:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by shijinn \* > \*\*so the odds are against you, and even if you are consistently lucky they can ban you at their own discretion? \*\* I never said that. It is _impossible_ to be lucky enough to beat house games in the long term. You will not be banned for having a lucky streak. In fact, they’d probably publicize your lucky streak to get a fresh load of suckers in the doors. \*\* > [@](#): > > and how can they call themselves ‘professional gamblers’ if they don’t earn consistently? \*\* They can call themselves whatever they want. If they play house games, I call them suckers. Haj ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-ban-winners/192662/13 "2003-08-03T05:17:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ccwaterback \* > \*\*So the signs I have seen in the entrance ways to many bars and restaurants that states, “We reserve the right to refuse service to any potential customer”, is illegal? Wow, next time I see one of those signs I am going to tell them to take it down because they are breaking the law. \*\* They can refuse service to someone so long as it doesn’t break a law. If the refusal of service isn’t based on race, national origin, gender, etc., it is perfectly legal. Haj ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-ban-winners/192662/14 "2003-08-03T05:22:08Z")
I think there are many things at issue here. First of all odds don’t lie. Without cheating you probably won’t win always. Now odds being what they are there is NOTHING that says you can’t win, but it is unlikely to happen. Also remember that casinos LIKE people to win. If you are in one and you see others winning you are likely to continue your losing streak even if you were about to walk out. So if you do win and they can deduce you aren’t cheating you most likely will not be asked out. These casino people are pros and they know who is cheating and they have the undercover cameras and people looking to figure out what is what. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-ban-winners/192662/15 "2003-08-03T06:54:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hajario \* > **It is _impossible_ to be lucky enough to beat house games in the long term.** Actually, it’s not impossible. Think about it. But it happens to very, very few people. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-ban-winners/192662/16 "2003-08-03T07:26:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Walloon \* > \*\*Actually, it’s not impossible. Think about it. But it happens to very, very few people. \*\* I am an engineer, not a theorist. The odds are so astronomically against it that it is the same as impossible. It hasn’t happened. Haj ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-ban-winners/192662/17 "2003-08-03T07:54:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hajario \* > With the exception of poker and sports betting it is an impossiblilty to consistently with without cheating. Using card counting techniques in blackjack may not be techincally cheating but it is against the rules so you will get banned from a casino for doing it well enough to win. In Las Vegas and Atlantic City, the rules do not forbid card counting - they forbid the use of any external aids, counters, computers, etc. Anything you do with your own mind is legal. So I guess I’m curious what “rules” are referred to above. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-ban-winners/192662/18 "2003-08-03T08:13:47Z")
There are many professional gamblers. And no, you do not need to put quotes around the term. Not one of them plays any game (for a living) that has fixed odds. It is impossible to make a living at craps (or I would), roulette, baccarat, sic-bo, the money wheel, et cetera. You can make a living at sports betting, but it takes more time and effort than is worth…you really have to love it. And we’ve all seen the pro poker players on ESPN. I honestly don’t know if there is such a thing as a professional blackjack player. Because the times when the odds are in your favor are so few and far between, I would tend to doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-ban-winners/192662/19 "2003-08-03T08:21:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > \*\*In Las Vegas and Atlantic City, the rules do not forbid card counting - they forbid the use of any external aids, counters, computers, etc. Anything you do with your own mind is legal. > > So I guess I’m curious what “rules” are referred to above. > > - Rick \*\* I only have some anecdotal evidence here. First let me explain the basics of card counting. There is a “book strategy” to playing blackjack. I am going to oversimplify a little bit. When you decide whether to hit or stand, you make an assumption that any unseen card has a value of ten. This is a pretty good assumption but it is not true a little more often than not. If you play perfect book strategy, the house has about a 2% edge. Now if you are counting cards, you are keeping count of the relative number of ten value cards to non-ten value cards are in the shoe. If the deck is rich, i.e. there is a relatively high ratio of ten value cards in the deck, the assumption that I mentioned earlier can become a good one. What card counters do is increase their bets when this situation occurs and bet the minimum in other situtuations. If casino personel see you playing with your betting amounts like that they will ask you to level your bets. If you don’t, they will kick you out. It has happened to people I know. They may also change the table from a $10-100 table to a $20 only table. If there is only one betting increment, counting techniques will not work. I good friend of mine runs an international card counting team. They use groups of players to mask the fact that they are counting. They have to mask their activities to keep playing. Also, most people who attempt to count don’t do it well. They will let you keep doing it so long as you are losing. Maybe it’s not an official rule but people are banned for doing it and they take measures to foil it. Haj ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-ban-winners/192662/20 "2003-08-03T08:23:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ellis Dee \* > \*\*I honestly don’t know if there is such a thing as a professional blackjack player. Because the times when the odds are in your favor are so few and far between, I would tend to doubt it. \*\* Yes, with the advent of the multideck shoe with a shallow cut, it’s a rare time indeed that the deck is in your favor. There are people who make a living at it but, like sports betting, it’s not worth it. Haj [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-ban-winners/192662.md?page=2)