# Do casinos manipulate the odds of slot machines? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 4, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-manipulate-the-odds-of-slot-machines/745143 "2016-02-04T15:29:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-manipulate-the-odds-of-slot-machines/745143/21 "2016-02-05T05:58:00Z")
Thanks Hamster King! ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-manipulate-the-odds-of-slot-machines/745143/22 "2016-02-05T09:34:56Z")
My brother and his family were in Las Vegas last year and my nephew had a look at the slot machines. He saw that on the back of the machines was printed a list of the odds etc. In particular he read that the odds were for over the whole floor, not the individual machine. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-manipulate-the-odds-of-slot-machines/745143/23 "2016-02-05T15:00:02Z")
> [@tim-n-va](#): > > From this thread it seems as if it was just an urban legend that the odds on the slots near the entrance were slightly better. The logic was to catch the eye (and ear) of passers-by. Or would this be different because the odds on those machines aren’t being changed on the fly. In theory they could be, within the law. There’s now law saying that your “OMG Kittens!” machine (yes, there is such a thing) can’t have a better payout than your Ellen DeGeneres slot machine (I swear I’m not making these up.) Maybe OMG Kittens! has expectation X and Ellen has expectation Y; as long as you’re not monkeying with each machine in violation of the law, it’s fine that they be different, just the way your blackjack game has different EVs than the Caribbean Stud game. As Hamster King points out, you will in particular have a difference between mechanical slots that can’t be changed, and the electronic ones that can. What makes the “payouts near the door” story a bit dubious is simply that it just doesn’t seem like there’s much of a point. The difference between a machine that pays back 99% and one that pays back 98.1% - and really, that’s the kind of range you’re talking about - isn’t likely to be noticed by anyone. Slot machine players will base their beliefs of payouts on faulty perceptions of what machines run “Hot” or “cold” in their eyes, or just what machines they find appealing. ---
**Author:** ![Turble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Turble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turble)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-manipulate-the-odds-of-slot-machines/745143/24 "2016-02-05T16:55:05Z")
The settings of the slot machines is decided by the slot manager. There are many different ideas used by different people. Setting the machines at the end of rows or near the entrance to be looser than others is certainly done in some places. Another common setup is to alternate tight and loose machines in the same row so the people who play two machines at the same time are sure to get one of the tighter machines. For a slot machine manufacturer to be licensed to sell machines in Nevada, every machine that company sells world-wide must comply to Nevada regulations. To insure that the computer chips are legitimate, a Gaming Control officer will occasionally choose a random machine and pull the chip, taking it to the lab for analysis. There have been a few incidents of counterfeit chips set to never pay out jackpots, mostly used in out of the way truck-stop type places and local corner bars; I’ve never known of them being used in any major casino. Over the course of millions of plays, the machines **will** come very close to their theoretical setting. It is pointless for a casino to bother trying to adjust the settings according to how much a player is winning or losing. ---
**Author:** ![xizor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xizor/32/102_2.png) [@xizor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xizor)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-manipulate-the-odds-of-slot-machines/745143/25 "2016-02-05T21:01:32Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > My brother and his family were in Las Vegas last year and my nephew had a look at the slot machines. He saw that on the back of the machines was printed a list of the odds etc. In particular he read that the odds were for over the whole floor, not the individual machine. I have been to casinos all over the world, and been to Las Vegas hundreds of times. Yet I can count on one hand the times I saw the back of a slot machine. They are always arranged in banks so access to the back of the machine is extremely difficult if not impossible. I would like to know what casino your nephew was in that he could look at the backs of the slot machines. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-manipulate-the-odds-of-slot-machines/745143/26 "2016-02-06T05:51:47Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > …All of the various scenarios posited by the OP are impossible as things are now, illegal as hell and totally paranoid thinking… Without further evidence, we do not know if OP’s thinking is paranoid. To me it is a lovely case example, with well-thought out examples, of what could be done in _any_ business outlet with–nowadays at least–a modicum of networked information. Perhaps only recently the idea is becoming more widely known as an Internet thing: page-views on a site and/or on Tuesday mornings and/or after having looked at site x or y, etc.–any pattern of behavior can be used in the business of separating those exhibiting behavior from their money. The ads on your screen, for example. The amount of micro behavior information tracked on all of us and available for sale, suitably parsed, is astounding. The huge marketplace is there for a reason. All demographic research is the same. The regulations and social uses may differ, but “paranoia” is not necessarily relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Squallous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Squallous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squallous)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2016, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-manipulate-the-odds-of-slot-machines/745143/27 "2016-02-23T20:09:20Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Without further evidence, we do not know if OP’s thinking is paranoid. No, not that I’m aware of. (But even if I was, would I be aware of it? Hmmm…) It was more of a “what if / can it be done / why or why not?” I have a family member in the data business - collecting, analyzing, and predicting based on it. I drive past a casino every day, they have slots outside on a balcony (smoking area?). Which got me thinking - Do they know exactly which individual is playing a certain machine? In some cases, yes. Can they change the odds or manipulate the behavior of the machines remotely? Yes. Can they do that in real time and for the purposes described in my post? Sure they _can_. Is it legal? Apparently not. So most don’t. But I suspect that somewhere, somehow, some time, some casino will. Because money. And yeah I’m paranoid as all f\*\*k. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2016, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-manipulate-the-odds-of-slot-machines/745143/28 "2016-02-24T00:01:14Z")
> [@Squallous](#): > > No, [I’m not paranoid] not that I’m aware of. (But even if I was, would I be aware of it? Hmmm…) [snip of by eminently rational thought…] > > And yeah I’m paranoid as all f\*\*k. 😉 Schizophrenic, maybe. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2016, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-manipulate-the-odds-of-slot-machines/745143/29 "2016-02-24T00:13:31Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Wizard of Odds is legit. Fun fact: _The Wizard of Odds_ was the name of a TV game show that Alex Trebek hosted early innhis career. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2016, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-manipulate-the-odds-of-slot-machines/745143/30 "2016-02-24T10:49:21Z")
I remember reading in one of those HOW TO BEAT THE ODDS AT GAMBLING books that the 90s/00s slot machines that had both the original pull lever along with the button press to start, using the mechanical pull lever gave slightly better odds than the electronic button press because according to the Nevada slot regulations mechanical and electronic games had different odds assigned to them, and the original mechanical ones were very slightly more favorable to players so any machine with two options to play had to have different odds whichever way you started it. Of course its moot now with almost all slot machines being pure buttons for easier maintenance but its still an interesting anecdote. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2016, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-manipulate-the-odds-of-slot-machines/745143/31 "2016-02-24T15:02:37Z")
In the absence of very strong and heavily enforced regulation then yes, casinos absolutely would do things like that, just as all other businesses are learning how to do as \*\*Leo \*\*said: mine customer behavior information for microscopic advantages on each transaction that add up to huge gains overall. So the question becomes simply: are you gambling in a location with strong enough regulation & enforcement? In Nevada, almost certainly so. On a ferry boat between two islands in Malaysia? Not so much. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2016, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-manipulate-the-odds-of-slot-machines/745143/32 "2016-02-24T16:33:23Z")
So each pull is completely random? Guess Ross was wrong about lurkers trying to steal your jackpots. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2016, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-manipulate-the-odds-of-slot-machines/745143/33 "2016-02-24T17:00:12Z")
Not only is every pull random, the machine generates thousands of possible outcomes every second, so even if you were sitting at the same machine when somebody “stole your jackpot,” you would have hit the button at a different fraction of a second, and the result would have been completely different. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-manipulate-the-odds-of-slot-machines/745143/34 "2016-02-25T11:23:03Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > So each pull is completely random? Guess Ross was wrong about lurkers trying to steal your jackpots. Phoebe, not Ross, was plagued by the little old lady lurker in Caesars Palace. And Bally Technologies has a [_Friends_](https://www.ballytech.com/games/class3/premium-games/friends-3675) slot machine. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-manipulate-the-odds-of-slot-machines/745143/35 "2016-02-25T15:04:56Z")
> [@dba\_Fred](#): > > Phoebe, not Ross, was plagued by the little old lady lurker in Caesars Palace. > And Bally Technologies has a [_Friends_](https://www.ballytech.com/games/class3/premium-games/friends-3675) slot machine. Yes but it was Ross who told phoebe about lurkers. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-manipulate-the-odds-of-slot-machines/745143/36 "2016-02-29T18:03:35Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > In the absence of very strong and heavily enforced regulation then yes, casinos absolutely would do things like that, just as all other businesses are learning how to do as \*\*Leo \*\*said: mine customer behavior information for microscopic advantages on each transaction that add up to huge gains overall… At the risk of piling on this point–and cases could be adduced from now to doomsday–the following campaign struck me as particularly interesting/troublesome in that the network we plug into and which can be traced is us ourselves (we who have cell phones) without even “opting in” to the business environment, such as a casino, or even (as I had thought) even something so large as choosing to use Internet. To the market, everything is the business environment. Can’t wait for the Internet of things in our home. [http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/29/business/media/see-that-billboard-it-may-see-you-too.html?mabReward=CTM&moduleDetail=recommendations-0&action=click&contentCollection=Politics®ion=Footer&module=WhatsNext&version=WhatsNext&contentID=WhatsNext&src=recg&pgtype=article](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/29/business/media/see-that-billboard-it-may-see-you-too.html?mabReward=CTM&moduleDetail=recommendations-0&action=click&contentCollection=Politics®ion=Footer&module=WhatsNext&version=WhatsNext&contentID=WhatsNext&src=recg&pgtype=article) It is filed the NYTimes “Media” section–which is also interesting/troublesome. _See That Billboard? It May See You, Too_ By Sydney Ember February 28 2016 … Clear Channel Outdoor Americas, which has tens of thousands of billboards across the United States, will announce on Monday that it has partnered with several companies, including AT&T, to track people’s travel patterns and behaviors through their mobile phones. By aggregating the trove of data from these companies, Clear Channel Outdoor hopes to provide advertisers with detailed information about the people who pass its billboards to help them plan more effective, targeted campaigns. With the data and analytics, Clear Channel Outdoor could determine the average age and gender of the people who are seeing a particular billboard in, say, Boston at a certain time and whether they subsequently visit a store. … ETA: for the interested, if you click reply to post, which reveals the URL formatting, you’ll notice the NYTimes’s data mining info. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-manipulate-the-odds-of-slot-machines/745143/38 "2017-11-10T17:41:40Z")
Drive-by post above. Surprised it didn’t mention contrails and pizza joints. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-manipulate-the-odds-of-slot-machines/745143/39 "2017-11-10T18:42:59Z")
> [@rickyzzi](#): > > Of course the casino can manipulate the odds of a slot machine for a particular player… they let the high rollers (the players that play more) win more so its a personal thing… not a random thing. … [http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/12/technology/from-the-back-office-a-casino-can-change-the-slot-machine-in.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/12/technology/from-the-back-office-a-casino-can-change-the-slot-machine-in.html) Perhaps you will note that your own cite says many of the same things already mentioned - > [@](#): > > By law, Nevada casinos must on average return at least 75 percent of slot machine wagers. The reality is they return more than 90 percent, casino operators say, though they do not publicize the figures. Also under the law, they cannot modify the payback percentages while someone is playing. > > State law allows them to change the odds after a machine has been idle for four minutes, and then they must not allow anyone to play the machine for four more minutes. During that time, the screen must indicate a change is being made to the game’s configuration, said Travis Foley, laboratory manager for the technology division of the Nevada State Gaming Control Board, who is overseeing the Treasure Island test. Welcome to the SDMB, for various values of “welcome”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-manipulate-the-odds-of-slot-machines/745143/40 "2017-11-10T18:44:45Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > Drive-by post above. Surprised it didn’t mention contrails and pizza joints. Mmmmm. Pizza joints. Satisfy the munchies as you’re smoking. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-manipulate-the-odds-of-slot-machines/745143/41 "2017-11-10T19:37:53Z")
The mods really need to delete these drive-by thread shits from people who are so lacking in knowledge it’s a miracle their heads don’t implode from the suck. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-manipulate-the-odds-of-slot-machines/745143.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-casinos-manipulate-the-odds-of-slot-machines/745143.md?page=3)