No offense intended, but you have no way of knowing anyone’s scholastic and academic credentials here or their private education in Biblical studies.
This is really a very good reminder:
Phew! That’s a tall order!
Cosmosdan, it’s lovely to know you are out there in Nashville. My “forest” is less “primeval” for it tonight.
Bibleman, would you mind putting a carriage return–that is, an empty line–between your paragraphs? It would make your longer posts easier to read.
I believe the question was:Do Christians believe non Christians are going to Hell?
I do not know why any one would be swayed by what a Christian believed,it is their right to believe as they desire. A non-Christain need not worry. Belief is just that, not fact. Because a Christian believed a non Christian is going to Hell Who cares?
There are so many translations of what some call God’s word and it depends on what you desire, as belief comes from desire. There are many different interpretations of the Bible. Hence many sects of Christianity. It is an individual choice.
Monavis
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
how about a passage even hinting when inspirational writing that resulted in scripture would end.
[/QUOTE]
I have never said that the Bible contains every Word that the Holy Spirit has ever spoken or will speak. Consider Phillip’s four prophetess daughters (Acts21:9), we have no record of what the Holy Spirit spoke through them. The reason their prophecies aren’t included is that they were of insufficient weight to add anything substantial to the Canon, most likely they consisted of general guidance or specific revelation for individuals and possibly for their local church. Similary, though the Holy Spirit continues to speak in the same way to individuals and church’s today, there is little likelihood that it would warrant adding to the existing scriptures, although it’s theoretically possible. There’s no scriptural basis for anyone to claim that the Holy Spirit won’t add something in the future to the existing Bible (for instance, suppose He decides the time has come to reveal what the 7 thunders spoke in Rev10:4?). Those who claim the Bible canon is closed are correct in their assertion that what the Holy Spirit speaks will always agree with what He has already spoken and revealed in the existing Scriptures, however they have no basis to stipulate that He won’t add something later. I would add however, that considering the scope and magnitude of the events outlined in the Book of Revelation, which reveals God’s plan for mankind right through the 2nd coming of Christ, past the millenium and into the very coming of the Kingdom of God from heaven to earth (Rev21:2), it is highly unlikely that He will be disclosing anything further, but He will never add anything which contradicts that which is already written.
[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer]
Bibleman, would you mind putting a carriage return–that is, an empty line–between your paragraphs? It would make your longer posts easier to read.
[/QUOTE]
It comes from the days when we tried to conserve paper.
[QUOTE=Bible man]
It comes from the days when we tried to conserve paper.
[/QUOTE]
You may have noticed that they have the Internet on computers now. 
They’re talking about adding pictures and sound too – maybe even MOVING pictures, but I hope not; somebody might put naughty pictures up.
I heard that some think the Internet may be someday used for commercial purposes, but I don’t see how.
[QUOTE=Zoe]
you have no way of knowing anyone’s scholastic and academic credentials here or their private education in Biblical studies.
[/QUOTE]
Normal academics have little to do with effectual Biblical knowledge or understanding (see Galations1:1 and 1:12 and 1John2:27). Jesus told the Pharisees, the preimminent scholars of the time, “You search and investigate and pore over the Scriptures diligently, because you suppose and trust that you have eternal life through them. And these very Scriptures testify about Me!” (John5:39 Amplified). They could quote the Scriptures from memory and preach long sermons about them but when it came down to the true meaning and purpose of the scriptures, they were ignorant to the point of killing the reason the scriptures even existed! Unless the Holy Spirit teaches the Scriptures, they are essentially closed to the human mind. However, I must admit that I myself do have a BSD in Biblical studies. (ie, Back Side of Desert)
Tomndeb, you have made my point that according to the Catholic Church, I am damned! Whom do you suppose they are describing when they say:
"Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it (emphasis mine). This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
I was raised and educated as a Catholic for the first 16 years of my life including 13 years of Catholic Schools, apologetics, theology, etc.
I left the Catholic Church 42 years ago when I realized there was no room for a gay person in the Church. I would say the above-quoted sentence pretty much describes me, wouldn’t you say?So not only am I an apostate, not only am I excommunicated (I am still grateful to you for pointing that out to me, Tomndeb) but I am also going to get my ass fried by Satan when I die! This gets more and more wonderful all the time.
I suppose the only drawback to Hell would be having to share it with all those Renaissance Popes!
[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer]
You may have noticed that they have the Internet on computers now.
[/QUOTE]
Ah yes, the good old days when a mouse was just a furry little creature that got in the pinto beans now and then. But wait, what does all this computer talk have to do with the existence of hell? Oh yeah - spam and spyware…
First, I’d just like to say that I’m boggled how Bible man can admit so frankly that humans are incapable of correctly interpreting the Bible, and then state that his interpretation must therefore be the correct one, out of the tens of thousands of interpretations sprung from people claiming to interpret with the aid of the Holy Spirit. Is he the one lone human incapable of misinterpreting the Holy Spirit, out of the thousands who try? Or is everyone else lying about having the aid of the Holy Spirit?
Now, to hijack this thread with a reference to the OP:
I’m sort of an agnostic/athiest/loose theist; I don’t believe it’s unknowable (all ya gotta do is die), and I predominanly swing with the side of science about things like the largely fictional nature of the stories in the bible. But, as I’m not willing to declare that the massive numbers of people who claim to have been influenced by a noncorporeal entity are completely unhinged, I can’t quite be an atheist, either.
Nonetheless, if there is a god, and if he sends anybody to hell or murders them (or, by his careless inaction, allows them to suffer endless torments or destruction), then I really hope that I’m among that group being tortured/annihilated. I’m self-serving as all get-out, but I’m still not up for praising/worshipping anything that endorses atrocity against persons who merely don’t praise/worship it. (Ideally, I’d tell god in this case where to shove his salvation, but I’m not sure I’m noble enough to resist the temptation of heaven, were it offered.)
If however the bible (and virtually all christian religions) is incorrect about the whole judgement/punishment thing, and if everyone gets the good life without regard for their beliefs or minor worldy errors, then I guess I could support that. There is no authoritative basis of any kind for this scenario, of course. 
[QUOTE=begbert2]
Nonetheless, if there is a god, and if he sends anybody to hell or murders them (or, by his careless inaction, allows them to suffer endless torments or destruction), then I really hope that I’m among that group being tortured/annihilated. I’m self-serving as all get-out, but I’m still not up for praising/worshipping anything that endorses atrocity against persons who merely don’t praise/worship it.
[/QUOTE]
I believe the more or less normal Catholic position, whimsically stated, is that they are quite sure that there is a Hell, nobody knows if there’s anyone in it. (My theologian friend quotes that line occasionally.)
[QUOTE=Valteron]
Tomndeb, you have made my point that according to the Catholic Church, I am damned! Whom do you suppose they are describing when they say:
"Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it (emphasis mine). This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
[/QUOTE]
So, you are claiming that you do know that “the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ” and despite that knowledge, you refuse to remain in it?
Interesting.
[QUOTE=Bible man]
I have never said that the Bible contains every Word that the Holy Spirit has ever spoken or will speak. Consider Phillip’s four prophetess daughters (Acts21:9), we have no record of what the Holy Spirit spoke through them. The reason their prophecies aren’t included is that they were of insufficient weight to add anything substantial to the Canon, most likely they consisted of general guidance or specific revelation for individuals and possibly for their local church. Similarly, though the Holy Spirit continues to speak in the same way to individuals and church’s today, there is little likelihood that it would warrant adding to the existing scriptures, although it’s theoretically possible. There’s no scriptural basis for anyone to claim that the Holy Spirit won’t add something in the future to the existing Bible (for instance, suppose He decides the time has come to reveal what the 7 thunders spoke in Rev10:4?). Those who claim the Bible canon is closed are correct in their assertion that what the Holy Spirit speaks will always agree with what He has already spoken and revealed in the existing Scriptures, however they have no basis to stipulate that He won’t add something later. I would add however, that considering the scope and magnitude of the events outlined in the Book of Revelation, which reveals God’s plan for mankind right through the 2nd coming of Christ, past the millennium and into the very coming of the Kingdom of God from heaven to earth (Rev21:2), it is highly unlikely that He will be disclosing anything further, but He will never add anything which contradicts that which is already written.
[/QUOTE]
I see. It’s interesting that you’re that open. Of course whether or not some new scripture contradicts the Bible would have a lot to do with individual interpretation as well, which as you know, is subject to error.
The RLDS I was a member of believe the Book Of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants only add to the testimony of Christs divinity and there is no contradiction. I’m pretty sure you disagree. Have you ever read them?
It’s also very interesting that you notice that there is no passage indicating that inspired writing will end, and that fact is the basis for this post. Still somehow the fact that there is no passage indicating that it was God’s intention for us to have a final authoritative collection of scripture doesn’t seem to mean anything.
You make an assumption about why the words of the four prophet daughters are left out. That conclusion , I believe, is linked to another assumption that has no scriptural basis. The reason the words of the four daughters were left out is because if we needed to hear it then God would have included it. Something like that? Consider that there are many other writing mentioned in the Bible that we do not have. Ephesians 3:3 mentions a previous letter that sounds pretty significant and that’s one of many mentioned. Then there are the writings that were being considered scripture before the cannon was declared by men. There was some disagreement about which books should be included or excluded. How can we sure that those men, given to errors in judgement, chose only the correct books? Is that because the Bible was God’s plan? Even now certain churches accept certain writings as scripture that others do not. The belief seems to be , and please correct me if I get it wrong, that the books of the Bible were written, preserved, and selected by God so that we can have everything we need to guide our lives. That being the case it’s safe to assume that there was nothing to valuable in any of those other books.
It all hinges on that belief about the Bible which has no scriptural basis. Doesn’t it seem illogical and inconsistent to embrace a belief about scripture which has no scriptural reference? To, declare men capable of errors in judgement and misinterpretation, but then claim so many men made no errors and were not capable, only to support that same belief.
The concept may be, “Certainly God would provide us with what we need to understand and live according to his will” The good news is he did. It is the Holy Spirit that lives within and leads us to all truth as Jesus promised. It helps to open our understanding and insight about the inner spiritual journey. Remember, Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within. Luke 17:21
As I truly embrace and have faith in that promise, one thing becomes clear. I no longer need any book to be inspired in any inerrant way. As you say, it is the inner spirit that teaches and leads to the truth. The Bible is only one tool to stimulate that process. I can look honestly at the errors and inconsistencies in the Bible and understand where they came from. I can also be moved by the words of Christ written there as they resonate with the inner voice.
Based on that faith and the facts about the Bible, including that nothing in it anywhere indicates it was intended to be what it has become, I conclude that it is a mistake to place too much authority in that one collection, and it is service to the truth Jesus promised would set us free, to see it realistically for what it is and isn’t.
[QUOTE=Bible man]
Normal academics have little to do with effectual Biblical knowledge or understanding (see Galations1:1 and 1:12 and 1John2:27). Jesus told the Pharisees, the preimminent scholars of the time, “You search and investigate and pore over the Scriptures diligently, because you suppose and trust that you have eternal life through them. And these very Scriptures testify about Me!” (John5:39 Amplified). They could quote the Scriptures from memory and preach long sermons about them but when it came down to the true meaning and purpose of the scriptures, they were ignorant to the point of killing the reason the scriptures even existed! Unless the Holy Spirit teaches the Scriptures, they are essentially closed to the human mind. However, I must admit that I myself do have a BSD in Biblical studies. (ie, Back Side of Desert)
[/QUOTE]
It is statements like this that make me wonder why you find my position impossible to fathom. I do happen to think that a quest for the truth can and should include academic studies as well. Doing a study of where the Bible came from and reading books by Biblical scholars has been a tremendous help to me. Academics form one piece of the puzzle and helps to sort out the truth from tradition, but it is true that the more subjective spiritual understanding of what is there comes from spiritual insight of the inner voice, The Holy Spirit. As you correctly point out, without the spirit the words don’t mean much. Without living a life moved by that loving spirit obeying a set of religious rules is empty.
Even though we don’t seem to agree on much you have helped me to understand some things and I sincerely thank you.
[QUOTE=tomndebb]
So, you are claiming that you do know that “the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ” and despite that knowledge, you refuse to remain in it?
Interesting.
[/QUOTE]
tomndebb, I am sending you a new irony meter, already calibrated. The one you are using is clearly wonky.
[QUOTE=begbert2]
I’m sort of an agnostic/athiest/loose theist; I don’t believe it’s unknowable, and I predominanly swing with the side of science about things like the largely fictional nature of the stories in the bible. But, as I’m not willing to declare that the massive numbers of people who claim to have been influenced by a noncorporeal entity are completely unhinged, I can’t quite be an atheist, either.
[/QUOTE]
There are a lot of different voices and lots of writings out there, so where indeed should a seeker of the Truth begin? My suggestion, of course, is to start with the one that makes the most sweeping claims, so the Bible is the logical choice by far. No book has ever sold more copies, none is more discussed, written about or criticized, and there are unique features that set it apart from all others. It claims to be a history of the acts of God from the beginning of time, even before man’s existence, foretells what God’s future actions will be right up to the end of the world, and even provides glimpses of eternity and how man can be involved in that eternal state.
The first unique feature about this collection of writings are the authors. Forty men, from different cultures and backgrounds, who lived over a 1500 year period, wrote historical accounts, prophecies, and eyewitness testimony about their experiences with the same God. Their writings have a consistent thread, and exhibit the type of inspiration that is beyond the capabilities of any man to produce on his own, much less 40 men from completely different cultures and backgrounds. Consider, for instance, the Saviour of the world that is gradually and consistently revealed in their writings: God’s choice for the Saviour of the world is a humble servant who comes to earth and dies as a condemned criminal, cursed by God (“cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree” (Deut21:23 and Gal3:13)) No human being, much less 40 of them over several centuries, could piece together such a story. They could not and would not, for mankind is simply not capable or motivated to envision that type of victorious world conqueror; there has to be a supernatural force behind their writings.
The bold paradoxes in the Bible also indicate a supernatural source (humans must always explain things quickly when they might be perceived as lacking integrity). For example, how can Christ tell the disciples “I will be with you always” and later tell them “I go away to prepare a place for you” or how can the coming Messiah be prophesied to be a reigning king and also a suffering servant? or how can He be the Prince of Peace, yet say “I have not come to bring peace but a sword”? While causing detractors to stumble away, the many paradoxes are resolved within the Bible itself and are actually a great place to start studying. And there is no substitute for self-study although commentaries and going back to the original languages can be helpful when difficult passages are encountered. I hope you will undertake the challenge and disregard the opinions of others which discount the Bible’s value. Who knows, maybe you too will be able to irk your friends and neighbors by claiming to know the Truth and pointing out where they have missed it. You might even obtain the coveted “BibleMan” designation for your area (it comes with a really neat blue cape).
[QUOTE=Bible man]
There are a lot of different voices and lots of writings out there, so where indeed should a seeker of the Truth begin? My suggestion, of course, is to start with the one that makes the most sweeping claims, so the Bible is the logical choice by far. No book has ever sold more copies, none is more discussed, written about or criticized, and there are unique features that set it apart from all others. It claims to be a history of the acts of God from the beginning of time, even before man’s existence, foretells what God’s future actions will be right up to the end of the world, and even provides glimpses of eternity and how man can be involved in that eternal state.
[/quote]
Agreed on all points.
Nonsense. Tolkien did it all by himself, and with equal plausibility and greater internal consistency. 
Am I reading this wrong, or are you actually portraying the Bible’s numerous internal contradictions as a positive? If so, then I have to hand it to you: that is the literal, dictionary definition of “spin.” Wow.
[QUOTE=Bible man]
There are a lot of different voices and lots of writings out there, so where indeed should a seeker of the Truth begin? My suggestion, of course, is to start with the one that makes the most sweeping claims, so the Bible is the logical choice by far. No book has ever sold more copies, none is more discussed, written about or criticized, and there are unique features that set it apart from all others. It claims to be a history of the acts of God from the beginning of time, even before man’s existence, foretells what God’s future actions will be right up to the end of the world, and even provides glimpses of eternity and how man can be involved in that eternal state.
The first unique feature about this collection of writings are the authors. Forty men, from different cultures and backgrounds, who lived over a 1500 year period, wrote historical accounts, prophecies, and eyewitness testimony about their experiences with the same God. Their writings have a consistent thread, and exhibit the type of inspiration that is beyond the capabilities of any man to produce on his own, much less 40 men from completely different cultures and backgrounds. Consider, for instance, the Saviour of the world that is gradually and consistently revealed in their writings: God’s choice for the Saviour of the world is a humble servant who comes to earth and dies as a condemned criminal, cursed by God (“cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree” (Deut21:23 and Gal3:13)) No human being, much less 40 of them over several centuries, could piece together such a story. They could not and would not, for mankind is simply not capable or motivated to envision that type of victorious world conqueror; there has to be a supernatural force behind their writings.
The bold paradoxes in the Bible also indicate a supernatural source (humans must always explain things quickly when they might be perceived as lacking integrity). For example, how can Christ tell the disciples “I will be with you always” and later tell them “I go away to prepare a place for you” or how can the coming Messiah be prophesied to be a reigning king and also a suffering servant? or how can He be the Prince of Peace, yet say “I have not come to bring peace but a sword”? While causing detractors to stumble away, the many paradoxes are resolved within the Bible itself and are actually a great place to start studying. And there is no substitute for self-study although commentaries and going back to the original languages can be helpful when difficult passages are encountered. I hope you will undertake the challenge and disregard the opinions of others which discount the Bible’s value. Who knows, maybe you too will be able to irk your friends and neighbors by claiming to know the Truth and pointing out where they have missed it. You might even obtain the coveted “BibleMan” designation for your area (it comes with a really neat blue cape).
[/QUOTE]
Um. Not to be all critical or anything, but there’s nothing about the bible that makes it unwriteable by man. Men and groups of men have written all sorts of wild and crazy things. The consistency of the authors is not suprising; they were often aware of each other and/or writing based on the same religious backgrounds, and the book has been edited and revised by people who were dealing with it as a single body of work. The contradictions and paradoxes are not surprising, for numerous reasons; some of which hurt the credibility of the book, and some of which have no effect.
No, the only thing about the book that indicates that it’s true and/or inspired by God is that it says it is, in various parts. Other than the claims it makes explicitly, there’s nothing else about it that inherently distinguishes it from any other book of collected stories or myths.
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp]
are you actually portraying the Bible’s numerous internal contradictions as a positive?
[/QUOTE]
There are very few actual errors in the Bible and they are easily traced back to either translation errors or to copiest slips. We have so many copies that it’s fairly easy to look back and see who did what. Scholars pretty much agree to the actual wording of the Bible books, of course what those words actually mean is quite a different story.
And yes, paradoxes (apparent contradictions) exist and they are a great source of discovering various Truths which are hidden in its pages (“It’s the glory of God to hide a matter and the glory of kings to search it out” (Prov25:2), and also see 1Cor2:8-10 and 1Cor4:1). Jesus did the same by using simple parables to teach deep truths. It’s not a problem for a true disciple to discern the meanings, but they remain useless enigmas to a non-believer. God does this not only to protect His paths but to keep the unbelieving and incredulous from being even more accountable for not following the Truth. The more Light which is rejected, the greater the final judgement will be (see Matt11:21-22 and John3:19).