Do you believe that people who never accept Christ as their savior are going to hell?
If not, how does that work for you? As I always understood it, one of the central tenets of the faith is accepting Christ as your personal savior in order to gain access to heaven. Am I wrong about this or are there ways around it?
[QUOTE]
I do not believe that non-Christians go to hell. As to your second question, I am not really strong on theology, but I will take a stab at this and maybe Tomndebb can help me out. What I have always been taught, as a Catholic, is that the Grace of God is what saves us. Catholics believe that grace is particularly received through the sacraments (especially Holy Communion). But God can confer grace on anyone…it is not limited to just that vehicle.
Are you sure it wasn’t more about it being a “bible-believing church,” more than what color the congregation is? I think the “bible Christians” as I call them (a lot of people around here would call them “fundies,” I guess), tend to have a real suspicion of the more ritual-oriented denominations.
As a Catholic, I have heard a million times that I’m not “really” a Christian, and am going to hell (the late great Brother Max, who some of you may be familiar with if you went to college in the midwest, used to say that Catholics are the “scourge of the earth!”) To me, it’s kind of funny…I mean, what do I care if some random person thinks I’m going to hell? I figure it’s pretty much between me & God.
What pathetically screwed up coding. Is it obnoxious for me to try again, so people can figure out what the heck I’m trying to say? Here it is, correctly, and if a mod wants to delete the above post, please please do.
I do not believe that non-Christians go to hell. As to your second question, I am not really strong on theology, but I will take a stab at this and maybe Tomndebb can help me out. What I have always been taught, as a Catholic, is that the Grace of God is what saves us. Catholics believe that grace is particularly received through the sacraments (especially Holy Communion). But God can confer grace on anyone…it is not limited to just that vehicle.
Are you sure it wasn’t more about it being a “bible-believing church,” more than what color the congregation is? I think the “bible Christians” as I call them (a lot of people around here would call them “fundies,” I guess), tend to have a real suspicion of the more ritual-oriented denominations.
As a Catholic, I have heard a million times that I’m not “really” a Christian, and am going to hell (the late great Brother Max, who some of you may be familiar with if you went to college in the midwest, used to say that Catholics are the “scourge of the earth!”) To me, it’s kind of funny…I mean, what do I care if some random person thinks I’m going to hell? I figure it’s pretty much between me & God.
And, verily, I say unto you, you have not been saved until you have been consumed by the Holy Spirit, masticated by the Word Made Flesh, swallowed into the Body of Christ, washed in the Hydrochloric Acid of Our Savior Jesus, dissolved in the Pancreatic Enzymes of the Lamb, and moved by the Peristalsic Waves of the Lord out through the Anus of the Anointed, for only then, my sisters and brothers, can you come to the father as was bid you, THROUGH HIM!!!
When I was very young, my parents were members of a conservative charismatic sect in rural Illinois. You couldn’t be considered a full member of this church until you had been “saved”; that is gone into a self-induced ecstatic trance, rolling on the floor and “speaking in tongues.” I never saw any snakes being handled there but it wouldn’t have surprised me in the least.
(Some of my earliest memories are of sitting, rigid with revulsion, among that congregation and wishing that I were anywhere else on the face of the earth. Naturally, I was a rabid atheist in my teens and moved out of my parents’ home the day after my 18th birthday.)
Anyway, this congregation believed very firmly and proclaimed every Sunday that they were going to heaven and everyone else, everyone else were going to go to hell. There’s no extreme to which faith can’t lead you.
Of course, in the many decades since then, I’ve mellowed a bit, even to recognizing a small bit of faith in myself. But I still think the company in hell would be better.
A point of reference for Chicago residents: In the early 50’s, most of that congregation decided to move to Chicago for better jobs. They bought an out-of-business movie theater and rehabbed the interior as a church. Anyone above a certain age who has ridden the Ravenswood or Howard ‘el’ certainly remembers a huge, garish neon cross emblazoned “Chicago Gospel Truth Center” just east of the Belmont stop. That was us.
More recently, it’s been replaced by tattoo parlors.
In the mid-80s, I was visiting my brother at Purdue U in Lafayette, IN & saw Bro Max. Anyway, I was milling around the crowd, doing damage control for C’nity
(and found that most his hecklers didn’t have any particular dislike for C’nity but for Max), and in the process, I was getting quite a crowd. Bro Max asked me
to stop interfering & taking their attendtion off him. As some of the crowd was
speaking up for my right to do that, an official Campus Crusade speaker was
setting up a small distance away & so I encouraged everyone to go listen to him
and let the way.
Just putting in a word as one of the non-Christian non-atheists here, as those aren’t the only options.
I’ve never encountered a hellfire-type in the flesh who wasn’t a crazed lunatic with a sandwich board shouting on a street corner – you know, someone who looks pretty obviously crazy and is ignored by everyone who isn’t currently interested in street theatre. I’ve encountered a couple on the 'net, including here; mostly, they tend to ignore me – my best guess is that they don’t have any canned arguments for my worldview so they don’t know how to respond to me.
I’ve encountered a fair number of the ignorant, some of whom are offensively ignorant, some of whom are curious and ask questions and can be answered informatively, some of whom just don’t give a damn.
My devout Methodist ex-boyfriend and I had a talk about religion early in our relationship, and he came to the conclusion that we believed basically the same stuff and used different break points and terminology, so whatever. A devout Catholic friend’s comment was, more or less, that she’s seen the Holy Spirit in the actions of many, many people, and she doesn’t know how God does it for those people who aren’t part of the Body of Christ, but God is clearly entirely capable and it’s not her problem. My mother-in-law invites us to midnight Mass when we visit, laughs when we decline, and wanders off without us. That’s pretty much a typical cross-section.
I was really weirded the hell out by a used car dealership with an ichthus on its billboard, but I figure they are fishers of customers, and truly they have their reward. I’m not buying from 'em.
I certainly never got the impression that anyone took old Max seriously…but he was always good for amusement value. Good for you for diverting attention, though…attention was all he really wanted.
Okay, I suppose. Maybe Jesus was trying to set up a cult of personality. I just recall the “not a tittle or a jot” line inre changing things. Frankly, it’s been a while since I last read the bible. My bad, I suppose.
True. I suppose I should have included that particular subset in my initial lumping in.
You desperate man. . .
Here I stand! I shall not be moved!
-Martin Luther
In other words, heh.
And honestly, I can know someone for a very long time and my atheism and/or their religiosity never come up. I’m not sure if that says something about the society in which we live or my winning personality. Naturally, I prefer to think that it’s all me. The whole concept of whether or not someone thinks that someone else is going to hell (and as best I can recall, the bible also had a little something in it about no one knowing the mind of God - not all the way at the end, but about 3/4 of the way through, I believe) seems somehow quaint to me. If you’re going to invest that much time and effort into thinking that I’m hellbound, then I’ll probably think that you’re an anachronism. I’ll give you crap and needle you, just because I want to, but it seems to me that you’re operating in a nineteenth century mode here in the early days of the twenty-first.
I think its quote a losing battle to try and argue that the vast majority of Christians and Christian sects don’t believe that non-believers: people that really don’t believe in god, are going to hell. The amount of legalistic quibbling necessary to even try to make it a plausible position is just too much. A lot of it seems to have developed as a half-hearted means to avoid the full brunt of the publcally embarrasing idea of sending, say, Ghandi to hell. But what’s the real theology there?
Heck, many important sects in history even believe that most CHRISTIANS are going to hell: forget non-Christians. Mel Gibson, for instance, seems to believe that his own wife is hellbound.
Now, today, there is a lot more progressive Christianity around. Hell is subtly redefined to either sound sort of like those bitter little atheists are just snubbing god as opposed to the other way around, or mostly just be something not talked about too much: sort of like women speaking in church. But it seems ridiculous to deny that sinners are hellbound is a major theme in Christianity, and that unbelievers are the absolute worst of all. In fact, most Christians and the Bible pretty well assert that thoughtful unbelief is THE worst, possibly even the one unforgivable, sin.
As a “progressive Christian” I don’t need a lot of legalistic quibbling to say that atheists are NOT automatically condemned to Hell. First off, I don’t believe that the every word of the Bible is literal. I believe it’s an inspired set of writings to help me live a better life.
Second, I don’t know what’s in your heart.
Third, I don’t know what’s in God’s heart, and it’s really God’s call, not mine.
That’s kind of my point. Despite what some of the more, ah, militant atheists may opine, not all Christians are in agreement on what hell is, nor are all Christians of one mind on how to interpret the Bible. There’s not a few of us who trade under the Cross who say that much of the Bible is myth & poetry that it is unwise to take literally, and who’d say that, to the extent that Hell exists, it equals voluntary separation from God during this life or the next (assuming the next exists) rather than an eternity of flame and brimstone & being eaten by Paris Hilton.
It was pretty clear that, in her view, the only churches that had a line on salvation were black pentecostal churches. She didn’t like white people very much.
And by didn’t like I mean would cheerfully have slit quite a few Europeans’ throats in their sleep, if given the chance to do so with impunity.
You are misrepresenting what I said. What I said was that the legalistic quiblling is needed to pretend that the majority of Christians didn’t believe it, or that it couldn’t be characterized as a Christian view. Not that it wasn’t possible to cobble together a Christian belief system that didn’t include it. Obviously, hell isn’t a very popular idea anymore, now that we are more civilized and decent.
I believe the same thing about blogs.
True. So, I’ll tell you: god belief isn’t. Does salvation mean anything in particular in your religion? If it does, then I’m probably not it.
Y’know, if anything were going to get me to convert and rush into the everlovin’ arms of Jesus, the threat of being eaten by Paris Hilton would definitely rank in the top three.
I wanted to thank you for coming in to share your point of view. There are probably thousands of Christians who find symbolism and parable in the Bible and practice a looser; more inclusive translation of the faith. Unfortunately the literal Christian who is more aggressive and outspoken just manages to deepen the divide between believers and skeptics. Christians who insist upon substituting the Bible for a science or history book exclude non-Christians and non-believers from society, from politics; from brotherly love. That kind of disparity can’t be a good thing- for either side. Surely that isn’t the divine plan.
In spite of all of the progress made in science and medicine the last 50 years; we still cannot easily define or support the reasons for spirituality. (But we are trying; we know the address of faith) Many of us want measurable proof; evidence. So the logic (or lack of) of belief still frustrates; but your simple and elegant explanation of faith without prejudice is comforting to me. Thank you.
