Do Christians believe that non-Christians are going to hell?

Great Debates
101

[QUOTE=nano8track]

  1. Yes and no. First I don’t believe in the eternal torture version of hell. My view on hell is more like this, “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather be afraid of the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell.” Mt.10:28

In other words hell is not eternal torture. It is the absolute end of life.

  1. I can’t say you have to explicitly accept Jesus, because there are people who have lived who have never even heard of Jesus. I do believe that God has revealed himself to the whole world in some fashion though. “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.” Ro. 1:20

Also I don’t really think Heaven is the main reward for accepting Jesus. It’s more of a side benefit. “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” Jn. 17:3 The main reward for a Christian, as I see it, is knowing God (and Jesus). I would be a Christian even if there were no Heaven. :slight_smile: Heaven just means that the joy of knowing God extends past this life.
[/QUOTE]

I wanted to respond to the original quote and your response. For many Christians it is as simple as “if you don’t accept Jesus as Lord and saviour then you can’t be saved” There are variations and differences in details but essentially for most protestants isn’t that it? I have a friend who a fairly liberal open minded Christian but as a Christian the end belief is just that. If you don’t accept Jesus as Lord you can’t be saved.

There are questions.
What if you never hear about Jesus? That has to happen occasionally.
What if your Jesus experience is from insincere hateful people who merely call themselves Christians but do not live accordingly. Have you encountered and rejected Jesus when you reject them?

This belief to me is the main flaw of Christianity and causes many of it’s followers to be separated from the rest of mankind. IMHO Jesus message was that we are all one, but Christianity teaches that we are one *only * if we accept Christ.
This belief to me seems to imply that God and Jesus are on some sort of ego trip and demand that we worship them and only them, not just in spirit and truth as the passage goes but also in name.
What, you believe in love and truth? Not good enough. You must accept Jesus by name. I think that’s backwards. If you seek love and truth then you are worshiping God and Jesus even if you reject certain popular concepts of them. I can’t imagine God cares what word we use to reach out. God, Yahweh, Allah, The Great Spirit, none of that matters at all. What is the intent of your heart? Love? Truth? Then you’re on the path. Discovering our potential for love and truth is knowing God isn’t it?

I believe the concept of the blood of Jesus washing away our sin is a distortion of what he taught. The connection to the blood sacrifice of Judaism was created after the fact. A tradition created by men, not taught by Jesus. I don’t believe a physical death could atone for anything.

Looking carefully in the NT and within ourselves we can begin to sort out the essence of Jesus message from the distortions and traditions of men. Seek love and truth, compassion, kindness, courage, mercy, within yourself and you will worship God in truth and spirit as the passage says. You will eventually discover the truth about Jesus apart from the myth and tradition.

102

[QUOTE=kunilou]

With capsule reviews like that, I wouldn’t accuse anyone of not reading anything, if I were you.
[/QUOTE]

Are you suggesting I haven’t read the bible, or that god does not demand our love with the threat of violence throughout both the OT and NT? Have you read the bible?

103

Back to the OP:

No, I don’t believe that anyone is going to “hell.” I think there is plenty of New Testament support for the inclusiveness of God’s love and mercy But there is more to Christianity than what is written in the Bible. What about the influence of the Holy Spirit? The experience of ultimate Unity that so many try to put into words and can’t? The peace that passeth understanding?

Do you find Carl Segan’s “Pale Blue Dot” thrillingly exhillerating or infinitely sad?

Is it possible that all paths lead to Unity?

Just because science cannot yet explain, why not someday? Maybe the “supernatural” is, after all, quite “natural.”

I saw a man on television the other night who could remember what he had done every day of his life for the last twenty years or so. He didn’t have this ability until he got hit in the head with a baseball when he was ten years old. It’s enough to make me wonder – Hey, what could I do if I just got hit in the head just the right way? What talents am I missing out on? What senses and abilities have I by-passed?

I’ve never held a violin. What if I was meant to play the violin? I play other instruments by ear. Maybe I’ve missed my calling!

So I want to try as many things as I can before it’s too late. I’m 63 now. There’s so much to do – so much to try out!

104

[QUOTE=badchad]
The closest I can come to a biblical theme is god saying love me or else. It pervades both the old and new testaments.
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[QUOTE=kunilou]
With capsule reviews like that, I wouldn’t accuse anyone of not reading anything, if I were you.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=badchad]
Are you suggesting I haven’t read the bible, or that god does not demand our love with the threat of violence throughout both the OT and NT? Have you read the bible?
[/QUOTE]

This is why as a rule I try to avoid debates between believers and non-believers. I’ve made a couple of exceptions in the past few days, only to see myself descend to sniping and cheap shots.

I apologize to the board and to badchad for my part in dragging down the level of discussion.

105

[QUOTE=kunilou]
This is why as a rule I try to avoid debates between believers and non-believers. I’ve made a couple of exceptions in the past few days, only to see myself descend to sniping and cheap shots.

I apologize to the board and to badchad for my part in dragging down the level of discussion.
[/QUOTE]

Apology accepted.

106

I don’t see how a “typical” Christian could believe non-Christians are going to hell. God gave humans the gift of free will, to choose belief or not. Why would he do that just to punish those who take the gift but ignore the giver? if He wanted obedient worshipers i’m sure He could have made us that way. He didn’t, so why punish those who are doing exactly what He intended and excersing their own free will?

107

Errors in doctrine are generated because people (and denominations) fail to consider the entire Bible before declaring something to be true. This is one of those topics in which certain scriptures are pulled out of context and used to support mistaken ideas ie, that one can only be saved by responding to the Gospel. Romans chapter 1 and 2 deals directly with the issue and clearly teaches that men are judged by how they respond to whatever light has been given to them. If they have been given God’s Law they are judged according to their response (Rom2:12), if they’ve heard nothing about the Law or Christ then they are judged according to their conscience (Rom1:19).
Concerning the doctrine of hell, the Bible teaches that it is a place of destruction not a place of eternal conscious torment (Matthew10:28). The torment experienced by the rich man (Luke 16:24) is not physical ( his body is on earth). His torment is that all the things that he chose to satisfy himself on earth are now gone and there is no future for him in God’s kingdom - only certain judgment and destruction await him on the last day. He chose to be satisfied with the temporary things of the world instead of the eternal things of God and will suffer the loss of all.
Concerning purgatory, that is a concept which the Catholic church created during it’s time of promoting the sale of indulgences and is not supported by the scriptures.

108

[QUOTE=Bible man]
Concerning purgatory, that is a concept which the Catholic church created during it’s time of promoting the sale of indulgences and is not supported by the scriptures.
[/QUOTE]
Gee. And you had been doing so well.

Historical note: the concepts that were later elaborated in the Western Church as Purgatory were already widely discussed in the early church, with Origen, St. Cyprian, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Ambrose, St. Jerome and others all describing views of the church that were later encapsulated in the doctrine of Purgatory. It was not an early Renaissance (or even later Medieval) invention.
It was based on various passages in Scripture, both in the New Testament, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, and in the Old Testament, 2 Maccabees 12:41 - 44, as that work existed in the Church prior to its removal by Martin Luther.
Now, it is perfectly fine to argue that the Catholic Church got it wrong, misunderstanding Corinthians or including 2 Maccabees in Scripture, but it is historically false to claim that Purgatory was “invented” for the purpose of selling indulgences, since it existed over 1,000 years before the notion of indulgences was first posited. (It should also be noted that indulgences were around for several hundred years before anyone decided to sell them–a practice that was wrong even from the perspective of the Catholic church when it did arise.)

109

[QUOTE=tomndebb]

Now, it is perfectly fine to argue that the Catholic Church got it wrong, misunderstanding Corinthians or including 2 Maccabees in Scripture
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A biblical note: 1Corinthians 3:11-15 refers to the quality of a person’s works being judged by fire to determine if they were sponsored, motivated, and empowered by God. It leaves open the possibility that a Biblically saved individual might engage in some worthless endeavors (not sponsored by the Holy Spirit) yet it will not affect his entering the kingdom of God. This has nothing to do with some sort of purgatory process that cleanses him from sin - all cleansing from sin was accomplished by Christ Himself and can have nothing to do with our own efforts. Further, the book of Maccabees, though it might be historically acceptable, is not considered to be directly inspired by the Holy Spirit. Even if it was, trying to use 2Maccabees12:41-44 to establish the Catholic purgatory doctrine fails because the offenses noted in Maccabees (idol worship) are “mortal” sins and are excluded from the purgatory process which only addresses “venial” sins.

110

[QUOTE=Bible man]
A biblical note: 1Corinthians 3:11-15 refers to the quality of a person’s works being judged by fire to determine if they were sponsored, motivated, and empowered by God.
[/quote]

According to whom?

Considered by whom?

111

Given that there doesn’t seem to be much of a consensus of Christians about any doctrinal topic, what’s the major prevailing views about where my soul would go when I shuffle off this mortal coil?

I was raised in the Baptist Church, was “saved” in the church as an early teen, but lost my faith and became an atheist at around the age of 20, and I’ve remained firmly an atheist for the past 25 years. I always heard in church growing up that once you’re saved, you’re always saved. I’m wondering whether I can use this as reassurance to any Christians who seem to be worried about my soul.

112

Bible man, as OneCentStamp notes, and as I had already mentioned, it pretty much depends on whom you believe or disbelieve, to begin with. You have an interpretation of Corinthians that matches that of the denomination from which you learned about Scripture. Others have read the same words and come to different conclusions.

As to Maccabees, it was considered by Christians to have been inspired by the Holy Spirit for at least 1400 years. The fact that one goup of people reconsidered that inclusion among the inspired books just gives people something to argue over; it is hardly proven that Martin Luther received directions from the Spirit to decanonize the work.

Regardless, I am not going to continue this hijack. I doubt that we would come to any reconciliation of conflicting beliefs. In the interest of the Straight Dope[sup]®[/sup], however, I could not let pass the inaccuracy of the historical development of the concept of Purgatory.

113

[QUOTE=CurtC]
what’s the major prevailing views about where my soul would go when I shuffle off this mortal coil?
[/QUOTE]

The once saved\always saved doctrine is another result of ignoring all the scriptures which teach otherwise. Consider Hebrews chapter 6:4-6, “For it is impossible to bring to repentance those who have been once for all enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit… if they then deviate from the faith and turn away, it is impossible to bring them back to repentance…” and 2Pet2:20-21, “For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world thru knowledge of Jesus Christ, they again become entangled in them and are overcome, their last condition is worse than the first. For never to have obtained a knowledge of the Way would have been better for them than, having obtained such knowledge, to turn back.” There is also John 15:6 in which Christ speaks of those who fail to abide in Him and are cut off and thrown into the fire like withered branches, also in Revelation chapter 3:5 the risen Christ speaks to a church about blotting their names out of the book of life. There are many other scriptures which indicate the same concept. In most cases, and probably including yours, I doubt that any of these scriptures apply because you simply walked away from something you were orginally only marginally committed to - many become Christians just because it is a family thing to do. In Matthew 13:20-21 Jesus spoke of the Seed which fell in shallow ground, sprang up, but then withered away because it had no depth of soil. The real definition of being saved is to accept and follow Christ. If a person once accepted Him but no longer does so, what has become of his salvation? He hasn’t really lost it, he has just decided to walk away from it. The antidote for such is simply to return to the Truth and follow Christ again.

114

QUOTE=Dob]I don’t see how a “typical” Christian could believe non-Christians are going to hell.
[/quote]

The bible says they are going to hell. It seems some of these other Christians have actually read their bibles.

[QUOTE=Dob]
God gave humans the gift of free will, to choose belief or not.
[/quote]

The bible says man is predestined to go where god wants not what man wants.

[QUOTE=Dob]
He didn’t, so why punish those who are doing exactly what He intended and excersing their own free will?
[/QUOTE]

I think the relevant verse (Romans 9:20) is: Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

[QUOTE=Bible man]

Concerning the doctrine of hell, the Bible teaches that it is a place of destruction not a place of eternal conscious torment (Matthew10:28). The torment experienced by the rich man (Luke 16:24) is not physical ( his body is on earth).
[/quote]

The rich man is described as being conscious of his torment is he not? Also, even if we accept hell as being just death, do you think the murdering of billions of souls is loving? If so, what would you describe as hateful?

[QUOTE=Bible man]

His torment is that all the things that he chose to satisfy himself on earth are now gone and there is no future for him in God’s kingdom
[/quote]

Actually I think the rich man said he was tormented by flame. Why would you try to tell us otherwise? Being as your name is “Bible man” I have a hard time believing ignorance of the scriptures is an excuse.

[QUOTE=Bible man]
There is also John 15:6 in which Christ speaks of those who fail to abide in Him and are cut off and thrown into the fire like withered branches, also in Revelation chapter 3:5 the risen **Christ speaks to a church about blotting their names out of the book of life. There are many other scriptures which indicate the same concept. **… In most cases, and probably including yours, I doubt that any of these scriptures apply because you simply walked away from something you were orginally only marginally committed to - many become Christians just because it is a family thing to do. In Matthew 13:20-21 Jesus spoke of the Seed which fell in shallow ground, sprang up, but then withered away because it had no depth of soil. The real definition of being saved is to accept and follow Christ. If a person once accepted Him but no longer does so, what has become of his salvation? He hasn’t really lost it, he has just decided to walk away from it. The antidote for such is simply to return to the Truth and follow Christ again.
[/QUOTE]

Emphasis mine. How could anyone in good conscience follow/worship this murdering god of yours?

115

[QUOTE=OneCentStamp]
According to whom?
Considered by whom?
[/QUOTE]

C’mon Mr. Stamp, if you can’t trust Bible Man, who can you trust? Failing that, your best course is to read the entire Bible for yourself (!) and then compare it to the works that were not included (Apocrypha, pseudipigrapha, gnostics, etc) and you will see clearly the myriad of reasons why they were excluded ie, inconsistent with the Bible, questionable authorship, lacking a valid historical background, etc etc. Without self study a person is doomed to be treated like a mushroom (kept in the dark and fed B.S their entire life). The Bible phrases it this way: “So then we may no longer be children, tossed like ships to and fro, between chance gusts of teaching, and wavering with every changing wind of doctrine, the prey of the cunning and cleverness of unscupulous men engaged in every shifting form of trickery in inventing errors to mislead” (Ephesians4:14)

116

[QUOTE=badchad]
. How could anyone in good conscience follow/worship this murdering god of yours?
[/QUOTE]

The Bible teaches that the entire world was doomed to destruction after sin entered thru Adam’s disobedience; we are all on the Titanic. But because God loved us (John3:16), He provided a way out for those who accepts the perfect sacrifice of His Own Son (It’s not the will of the Father that any should perish (Matt18:14)) . That’s hardly the actions of an uncaring, “murdering god”. But sin and those who cling to it, will indeed soon be entirely eliminated from the world. The choice is ours and God will respect our choice of either life or death.

117

[QUOTE=Bible man]
The Bible teaches that the entire world was doomed to destruction after sin entered thru Adam’s disobedience; we are all on the Titanic.
[/quote]

Bible man do you hold that the bible can for the most part be taken literally and is without error?

But you said god does kill people. Killing people is the action of a murderous god.

Also why did you try to mislead us about the torment of Lazarus’s rich friend?

118

[QUOTE=badchad]

Actually I think the rich man said he was tormented by flame. Why would you try to tell us otherwise?

The flames are not a physical torment to him, no one could carry on a conversation while their body was engulfed in fire, he is a disembodied soul. Only at the resurection of the dead, on the Day of Judgement, will he be reunited with his body. At that time, he will be destroyed after being cast body and soul into the Lake of Fire, this is the second death (Rev20:14). Further, the drop of water he asked for was symbolic of the Word of God. He was asking for some future hope for his condition, but there is no hope for those who have rejected God’s Word in this life.

119

[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
That’s exactly right. This is why the Catholic Church has spent 2000 years discussing it, and has a book that attempts to explain it all that’s almost as big as the bible itself. Sure, the catechism is based on the bible, but there is certainly no cut-and-dried answer for what it is all supposed to mean. And after Protestantism broke off, there have been thousands of denominations who all think THEY know the truth of it. Anyone who thinks they can blanket “Christianity” under one simple definition or interpretation of the Bible, doesn’t really understand how the bible is read by real people.
[/QUOTE]

One should be able to translate the Bible as one sees fit and they do. The New Testament as we know it today was not the New Testament until after the first 300+ years of Christianity, The Bishops of the church were called together by Constintine to unite the church. There were many different writings and many were not called inspired, or the word of (what was called) of God. The creed then included the words" Holy Catholic Church" (meaning universal) and it was meant to be a sign of the (what they decided to call) the One, Holy, Catholic,and Apostolic church.

Since man decided what God said, and inspired, it is what man we believe in, and what he was supposed to have said. People use what helps them,and as long as it doesn’t harm others what does it matter what one believes? One may not believe as I do and that doesn’t make them bad or ignorant, or vise -versa.

Monavis

120

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
Bible man, as OneCentStamp notes, and as I had already mentioned, it pretty much depends on whom you believe or disbelieve, to begin with. You have an interpretation of Corinthians that matches that of the denomination from which you learned about Scripture. Others have read the same words and come to different conclusions.

As to Maccabees, it was considered by Christians to have been inspired by the Holy Spirit for at least 1400 years. The fact that one goup of people reconsidered that inclusion among the inspired books just gives people something to argue over; it is hardly proven that Martin Luther received directions from the Spirit to decanonize the work.

Regardless, I am not going to continue this hijack. I doubt that we would come to any reconciliation of conflicting beliefs. In the interest of the Straight Dope[sup]®[/sup], however, I could not let pass the inaccuracy of the historical development of the concept of Purgatory.
[/QUOTE]

I believe the concept of Purgatory came from the place in the Bible where it said it is an Honorable or Helpful thing to pray for the dead. (I do not recall the passage or the exact wording). This plus what the Catholic Church called God’s mercy for sinners.

Monavis