Romans chapter 1 and 2 deals directly with the issue and clearly teaches that men are judged by how they respond to whatever light which they have been given. If they have been given God’s Law they are judged according to their response (Rom2:12), if they’ve heard nothing about the Law or Christ then they are judged according to their conscience (Rom1:19). The same holds true today, there are many, even in this country, who have never truly been presented with the gospel of Christ.
A question; if people may be judged fairly by their conscience, then why bring the gospel of Christ at all? It sounds kinda pointless in that regard.
I’m including not only direct references to hell, but also the implicit references in verses such as: "For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, if he forfeits his life in the kingdom of God? (Matt16:26) That forfeiture and other such warnings involves the concept of hell although it’s not always explicitly mentioned.
Hey, as long as I get to avoid the situation where I’m forced to eternally worship the horrific monster of a diety that’s described in The Bible, I’m happy.
So if I was never truly saved, and I had died at the age of 16 (after I thought I had been saved, but before I became an atheist), then I would still get hell (according to this set of beliefs)? Holy cow.
That implies that there are a whole bunch of people walking around now, thinking they’re saved, but would in the future convert to atheism if they were to live long enough, but will die before that happens, and they will burn in hell. I can just imagine the confusion that this causes at the pearly gates.
You are assuming that the person who wrote this is telling the truth, but it is just a human stating his opinion.God had nothing to do with it.One can only assume the writer was inspired by the Holy Spirit. So it boils down to what human you believe.
Monavis
Notice God said (according to the Author) “The day you eat of it you will surely die” No mention of a soul… it implys bodily death only. Since there was no one there to write down the exact quote one can only believe the writer of Genesis, who was not there at the time, and many centuries had passed.
Monavis
The point being made in Romans is that everyone has received some measure of God’s light (the Law,the Gospel,their conscience) therefore no one can escape their guilt because of ignorance. Romans3:12 states, “all have turned aside; together they have gone wrong and have become unprofitable and worthless; no one does right, not even one” John put it this way, "The basis of the judgement lies in this: that light is come into the world, and people have loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil (John3:19).
Although all are guilty and condemned from the start, Final Judgement is reserved pending a response to God’s certain call during their lifetime. Consider Hebrews 3:7-8, "Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts… and John1:10-12, “He came into the world, and though the world was made through Him the world did not recognize Him… But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority to become the children of God…” Abraham, an idol worshiping Gentile pagan, is called the Father of Faith because he heard God’s voice and left everything to follow and obey. We all have that same choice to make - God speaks to each of us in many different ways during our lives to call us out of darkness.
[QUOTE=Bible man]
Why do you say that? The rich man said he was tormented by flame. Jesus depicted him as carrying on a conversation. Whether the torment was physical or not, I don’t really care but the bible clearly dictates that he is tormented by flame not by the realization that “all the things that he chose to satisfy himself on earth are now gone and there is no future for him in God’s kingdom” as you would lead us to believe.
[QUOTE=Bible man]
Where in the bible does it say the drop of water is symbolic of the word of god? If he is tormented by fire why should he not wish for real water. If the drop of water he asks for is really the word of god, why is your god so stingy that he won’t let the rich man have it?
Again, why would you worship a god that will throw so many people into a fire? By endorsing this kind of mass murder, what does that say about you?
Well, what this question says about badchad is that you appear to be more interested in insulting other posters than actually carrying on a debate. This is the sort of crude hostility that got you Pitted and has raised your name among the staff as to whether you are worth keeping around.
If you would like to stick around and “prove” the terrible opinions of believers, then stick to the issues and leave the personailities out of it.
[ /Moderating ]
[QUOTE=badchad]
As a point of clarification, the rich man does not say that he is being tormented by the flame as you keep saying, but is tormented in the flame. As I’ve previously stated, the torment can’t be physical because no one can engage in a conversation if their physical body were engulfed in flames. Also, they would not regard a single drop of water to be a solution for such a situation.
Further, the denial of his request for a drop of water (symbolic of just a tiny bit of hope from God’s Word) is not intended to teach us that God is stingy, but that boundaries have been set for His extension of mercy to men (My Spirit will not strive with man forever (Gen6:3)). This sobering narrative clarifies that the opportunity to repent from our own ways and turn to God ends when our mortal lives come to an end.
[QUOTE=Bible man]
Is there some reason why you think that distinction is consequential? Whether I were tormented by flame or tormented *in flame, I think I would not like it.
One must either think that these are miracle flames in which a man can speak, or perhaps like torturing a man for information using a blow torch. If you put a blow torch directly up against my hand, I don’t think it would be an incorrect use of the English language to say I was in the flame.
Perhaps under the duress of being tortured in flame the rich man was unable to find the most correct words to communicate his desire for relief. However Jesus clearly said he was being tormented by what was flames and that the man after death was conscious of this.
What you say these verses were intended to teach, and what it does in fact show are two very different things. God is being very stingy with his hope, apparently for no better reason than spite and vengeance.
Right, repent or Jesus will torment and/or murder your soul. Please tell me if I am mistaken, according to your interpretation of the bible.
I have a bone to pick with this. It seems to me that is exactly what everybody who reads the Bible, and then declares they have discovered God’s will, does. How can they do anything else? Do ,you believe your interpretation is the correct one. as in “I understand God’s will and plan” You don’t see it as the interpretation of you or your particular group. It is also very obvious that others believe just as strongly they understand the “real” meaning of the Bible, as in, “God’s meaning” not man’s interpretation. They don’t agree with all of your doctrine.
How is anyone supposed to know which of the many groups who all say they are teaching the “God’s law according to the Bible” but don’t agree with each other, is the correct group? Do they read the Bible for themselves and decide? No wait. You just said they shouldn’t do that because that might be private interpretation. Do they ask someone else? No wait they can’t, because letting another person dictate the meaning to you would also be private interpretation wouldn’t it? Unless they listened to you…because evidently you and your group know God’s mind and will and might be the only ones who do.
Puh-leeze. It’s so clear that all people be they an individual or group do indeed use their private interpretation of the Bible to decide what it “really” means. As human beings they can do nothing else.
On a related matter, even though many Christians believe the Bible to be the inspired final authoritative revelation of God’s will and plan to mankind, there is nothing within that same collection of books to indicate that it was ever part of God’s plan to have one final authoritative collection. Nothing! Nada! Zero! Zilch! This belief is clearly a tradition passed down by men. I’m sure you know the passages that tell us not to accept that traditions of men as truth.
-What Christ is about as related to the issue of Judgement is described in John3:17-18 (Amplified), “For God did not send the Son into the world in order to judge - to reject, to condemn, to pass sentence on - the world; but that the world might find salvation and be made safe and sound through Him. He who believes on Him -who clings to, trusts in Him - is not judged. But he who does not believe in Him is judged already; (he has already been convicted; has already received his sentence) because he has not believed on and trusted in the name of the only begotten Son of God”
-The Biblical details concerning what happens to believers and non-believers after death has been covered in previous posts.
-Concerning Luke 16:24 (the rich man), I hope no one gave you the impression that if you don’t accept my explanation of Luke16-24 that your in danger of losing your soul. You’re quite free to believe (like many Christians and denominations) that the rich man is now suffering physically in Sheol and later will be cast into the Lake of Fire and will then continue to suffer there for eternity. Lots of people believe that, but it’s not supported by the Scriptures or by the character of God. However, you should be made aware that there are no Scriptures that disagree with my explanation of that verse.
If possible I’m going to try to respond to a post by cosmosdan from a few days ago, while avoiding much of the rest of this thread. 
I guess it depends on your definition of saved. My definition is essentially “knowing Jesus”. Not knowing about Jesus, but actually knowing Him like you’d know a good friend. So if you are asking, “Do you have to accept Jesus in order to know Him as a good friend?” Then I’d say, “Yes, most definitely.”
As I’ve said before I think of Heaven as more of a side benefit. It means you’ll know Jesus in the next life too. I see Heaven as a sort of place that is all about Jesus all the time. I don’t see how a person could like it if they didn’t want to accept Jesus.
That sounds like we are in agreement then. The bible gives lip service to the idea of god/Jesus loving of man, so long as man loves and worships god/Jesus back. If man does not love god/Jesus back, then all talk and all bets are off and god will torture/kill man. Love god or else
is the persistent theme radiating throughout the bible.
Of course what makes this more twisted is that the bible says (to which I’m sure you are aware) that man can not will for or work for salvation but can only be granted grace, arbitrarily by god. While those who go to hell were doomed, predestined since the dawn of time for their names were not in the book of life. Correct?
The character of god as determined by the words of his one of his fearful followers, or as would be determined by a disinterested bystander assessing the professed intentions and actions of your god, as described in the bible?
Well sure, if every time the bible says something you don’t want it to, you just say it meanswhat you want it to, I’m sure you can keep yourself fully insulated from all criticisms. In your own mind at least.
As I indicated in my post, the preeminent interpreter of the Scriptures is the Holy Spirit because He’s the One Who authored them. Before Jesus ascended, He told the apostles “I will not leave you orphans… I will send you the Holy Spirit and He will teach you all things”. Although God does supply the church with gifted men (see Ephesians 4:11-14), the Holy Spirit is the actual interpreter of the Scriptures and He is actually our Teacher (see Galations1:12 and 1John2:27). Indeed, without His direct revelation, the Scriptures would be a hopeless enigma.
And you are quite right to be cautious regarding the dangers of misinterpretations by men, even good men can make honest mistakes which can have disasterous consequences for those who follow them, and that’s without even considering the likes of Jim Jones and David Koresh. The only way to be safe is for an individual to study the scriptures for themselves and look to the Holy Spirit for revelation and guidance (the Bereans were commended in Acts17:11 as being more noble than others for, after hearing Paul’s message, they “searched and examined the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so”). Indeed, most false doctrines occur because of a failure to examine all the Scriptures concerning a matter; the one we are discussing (hell) is a perfect example: look at what a wide range of beliefs occur when only certain scriptures are considered but ignoring others which bring the issue into proper focus. There’s one other aspect that you touched on: people come to the scriptures with different levels of spiritual growth, different backgrounds, different life experiences, etc and these will “color” their understanding of certain scriptures for a while. It’s very important to extend patience, understanding, and grace to everyone as much as possible while these weighty and important matters are under discussion (I’m also preaching to myself here)
May your false God burn in his own Hell, Bible man.
Okay, this is a response I can work with. Thanks.
Jesus said" John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
I agree. Then we’d talk about what is knowing god and JC. To many it is an acknowledgement of the physical life death and resurrection of Jesus. You either believe in those things or you’re damned. You either acknowledge Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross as an atonement for your sins or you are damned.
Having Jesus as a good friend doesn’t require any of those. IMHO when Jesus says “believe in me”, he means if you sense the spirit within me and what that means, then you’re on the path to God.
To that same liberal Christian friend I would use the Gandhi example. Gandhi was an admirer of Jesus and his teachings. Some of his own beliefs were influenced by his reading of the Bible. He remained a Hindu when he observed that the christian s he knew didn’t live according to the teachings of their own deity. Any reading of Gandhi’s beliefs reveals he was a sincere seeker of god and tried to live according to his ideals of love and truth.
to many Christians the idea that Gandhi didn’t acknowledge Jesus as Savior means he was damned. IMO in his heart he was Jesus “good friend” to use your term. At some imagined moment of judgement would not reject Jesus but embrace the truth about JC because in his heart he was a true seeker of truth. IMO any person who sincerely seeks love and truth must eventually come to the truth about Jesus , whatever it is. In the meantime saying “I don’t really know” or rejecting someone else’s’ concept of JC may only be part of sincerely seeking the truth.
And all of them were just as convinced that the Holy Spirit was guiding them as you are. How do you know you are right and all those who disagree with you are wrong? Sounds to me like you got a good dose of pride.
Insurance agents used to paint a picture of a man’s family living in poverty unless he bought overpriced life insurance. The early Christians painted a picture to the pagans of them buring in hell unless they bought Jesus insurance. Some people fell for it hook, line and sinker. No wonder most Jews thought the new religion was rot - we went for thousands of years with god neve mentioning hell.
At least you’ve given a definitive answer to the question asked in the OP.