# Do Christians Continue to Be Sinners After Conversion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 11, 2003, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-christians-continue-to-be-sinners-after-conversion/147940 "2003-01-11T10:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2003, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-christians-continue-to-be-sinners-after-conversion/147940/41 "2003-01-12T19:17:27Z")
Thanks, CJ. And sorry for my poor communication skills. I honestly do the best I can; it just ain’t too good sometimes. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2003, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-christians-continue-to-be-sinners-after-conversion/147940/42 "2003-01-12T19:42:23Z")
They’re not poor at all! You introduce concepts I either hadn’t thought about before or hadn’t thought about in that way before. In my book, that’s a wonderful thing! ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2003, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-christians-continue-to-be-sinners-after-conversion/147940/43 "2003-01-12T20:20:52Z")
Summary of the great Televangelist Debacle of the late 1980s- Jim Bakker steps down from PTL Ministries while accusations of adultery are being investigated, agrees to give Jerry Falwell temporary oversight of PTL. Soon, rampant Bakker sexual & financial misconduct is discovered. Falwell holds onto PTL during investigations while Bakkers claim they were cheated out of ministry by him. Finally Falwell abandons PTL to other handlers while Bakkers are totally out of it. Two years later, Jimmy Swaggart who was a major foe & accuser of Bakker found to be consorting with prostitute- ousted from Assembly of God- ministry goes independent. He begins to rebuild congregation & pow! - is then caught with another prostitute. Whatever one thinks of Falwell’s beliefs & claims & handing of the PTL situation, he’s never been accused of adultery. Of course, I didn’t get into the Oral Roberts/John Ankerberg/Robert Schuller/Marvin Gorman tangents. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2003, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-christians-continue-to-be-sinners-after-conversion/147940/44 "2003-01-12T21:38:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Urban Ranger \* > \*\*Nobody has answered my question. > > What is sin? \*\* Sin is whatever God says is wrong. Transgression of His laws. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-christians-continue-to-be-sinners-after-conversion/147940/45 "2003-01-13T04:15:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Sin is whatever God says is wrong. Transgression of His laws. Good answer, from a jurisprudential standpoint. But someday, when you get tired of running in fear from the Divine Dictator-and-Judge, I’d like you to meet my Father (by adoption only, I hasten to add – He had only one begotten Son). I do believe you’d like him a lot. He’s much more patient and loving than I am. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-christians-continue-to-be-sinners-after-conversion/147940/46 "2003-01-13T06:11:53Z")
What is sin? being fearful being faithless being cowardly being unbelieving being vile being murderers being sexually immoral being whoremongers practicing magic being sorcerers being idolaters being liars [A deliberate act against the law of God](http://www.capitalmemorial.org/sindef.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-christians-continue-to-be-sinners-after-conversion/147940/47 "2003-01-13T06:53:58Z")
**Jersey** ’s link is worth clicking on – the classical definitions of sin spelled out in some detail, with Biblical cites (it’s not just the one she highlighted for the link). **Joe** and **Jersey** , without trying to set up a flamefest with you as guests of honor (but I cannot promise not to disagree), I’d really like to read your opinions of what **His4Ever** , **Tris.** , and I had to say above – the long first answers from **His** and me, not the short comments just above (though your feedback on them might be intriguing too). Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-christians-continue-to-be-sinners-after-conversion/147940/48 "2003-01-13T10:40:33Z")
I really think this would be more appropriate for a second thread, but this is my definition of sin: that which breaks the laws given to us by God. This goes back to Matthew 22:34-40 > [@](#): > > 34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: > 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” > 37 Jesus replied: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Verse 37 echoes Deuteronomy 6:5; verse 39 echoes Leviticus 19:18. When assessing my actions and confessing my sins, formally or informally, I go back to these verses and these commandments. That is why I consider it immoral to insult someone or to show cruelty in any way, shape, or form – doing so directly violates the commandment Christ himself gave us. **Jersey Diamond** , you gave us a list of a dozen sins. Why wasn’t “being cruel” on it? In my book, cruelty or failing to love one’s neighbor includes telling someone they are damned to hell without giving them a reasonably possible way to be redeemed. Cruelty also, in my all too personal experience, drives people from God. Oh, and **His4Ever** , sin also, in my book, includes breaking vows sworn before God because that dishonors one’s love and respect for God. Entering into vows unwisely enough that it later proves necessary to break those vows is also a sin because it indicates that one takes one’s relationship with God lightly. This is why, in my opinion, divorce is at least as great a sin as homosexuality. Divorce is a deliberate choice, whether at the time of marriage or at the time of divorce, or both. I know you think you don’t take your relationship with God lightly, and it is not my place to judge, but just as you will not change your view that homosexuality is sinful, so I will not change my view that divorce is sinful, however necessary. That, I’m afraid, will always be a divide between us. Regretfully, CJ CJ ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-christians-continue-to-be-sinners-after-conversion/147940/49 "2003-01-13T11:32:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > \*\*What is sin? > > being fearful > being faithless > being cowardly > being unbelieving > being vile > being murderers > being sexually immoral > being whoremongers > practicing magic > being sorcerers > being idolaters > being liars > > [A deliberate act against the law of God](http://www.capitalmemorial.org/sindef.htm) \*\* Interesting list. But you neglected these: touching anything ceremonially unclean eating fat eating rare steaks sporting unkempt hair wearing torn clothes eating camels eating pigs eating oysters eating a stork eating four-legged insects touching a woman before a week after bearing a son touching a woman before two weeks after bearing a daughter failing to show an infection to your priest failing to show a mildewed garment to your priest touching a bed upon which a man has had a bodily discharge failing to break a clay pot that an unclean man has touched failing to bathe after an emission of semen killing an ox outside the Tent of Meeting failing to observe the Sabbath reaping your entire harvest eating grapes off the ground cursing deaf people planting two kinds of seed in the same field wearing polyester blends cutting your hair at the sides of your head clipping off the edges of your beard wearing tattoos mistreating aliens failing to stone a medium or spiritist to death failing to observe Passover failing to stone a blasphemer to death Any particular reason you left those out? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-christians-continue-to-be-sinners-after-conversion/147940/50 "2003-01-13T12:18:12Z")
Gee, Libertarian, I’m sinning a lot more than I thought… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-christians-continue-to-be-sinners-after-conversion/147940/51 "2003-01-13T13:31:12Z")
**Lib** , you left out “casting the first stone”, which in his case seems appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-christians-continue-to-be-sinners-after-conversion/147940/52 "2003-01-13T13:31:56Z")
**JerseyDiamond** , you left something out of your list. (Besides the junk from Leviticus that **Lib** noted) _Pride_. Many people believe that being a _smug bastard_ is a major sin in itself. You may even agree, but then you probably don’t consider yourself in those terms. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-christians-continue-to-be-sinners-after-conversion/147940/53 "2003-01-13T13:33:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*Good answer, from a jurisprudential standpoint. > > But someday, when you get tired of running in fear from the Divine Dictator-and-Judge, I’d like you to meet my Father (by adoption only, I hasten to add – He had only one begotten Son). > > I do believe you’d like him a lot. He’s much more patient and loving than I am. \*\* I know the same Father you do. It’s because we couldn’t be perfect and not transgress that our blessed Savior came to pay the penalty for our inability to be perfect. But I’d never say that that is license to do whatever you please. Like it or not, the Bible teaches that our loving God **is** also Judge. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-christians-continue-to-be-sinners-after-conversion/147940/54 "2003-01-13T13:42:22Z")
Sorry, but you’re wrong about God. Jesus said: “Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son.” (John 5:22) And then the One Who actually **is** the Judge — Jesus — said: “You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.” (John 8:15) I always like Jesus’ response when someone from the crowd shouted, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me!” Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?” (Luke 12:13-14) ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-christians-continue-to-be-sinners-after-conversion/147940/55 "2003-01-13T23:46:44Z")
LIB, LIB, LIB… I am going to quote it in easier terms. I am assuming that you know the story around it, so here goes. > [@](#): > > Jesus told them, "these claims are valid even though even though I make them about myself. For I know where I came from and where I am going, but you don’t know this about me. You judge me with all your human limitations, but I am not judging anyone. And if I did, my judgement would be correct in every respect because I am not alone- I have with me the Father who sent me. Now, I think what you are missing is this: Jesus, at that time, came to show people the way, to tell them the truth. He was not there to judge people _at that time_. I think that is pretty clear. He is telling the people, “hey, you are judging me, I am not hear to judge, I am showing you the way to the Father.” Can you not see what he was there to do? Not to judge, but to show people the way so they are prepared for what is to come, the judgement. Also, in your argument it clearly says that The Father is going to let Jesus judge. Obviously, not at this time, but at the time of judgement. You are familiar with Revelation, I am sure. **Jesus is going to return as a conquering KING and JUDGE.** ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-christians-continue-to-be-sinners-after-conversion/147940/56 "2003-01-14T00:50:25Z")
That’s the clear message of the New Testament letters and the eschatological (End Times) parts of Matthew, to be sure, **Jersey**. The only problem I have with reading those passages in the clear terms in which they are written is this: If you ask **Zev** or **Chaim** why Jesus is not the Messiah in their view, they will explain that He did not comply with the prophecied role of the Messiah – which was as a conquering King and Judge who would restore the rule of righteousness in Israel. Instead, his Incarnation was as a humble carpenter’s son, an itinerant rabbi who claimed no political leadership, and allowed himself to be executed. (And of course the folks who interpreted Scripture freely thought that instead of an actual human Messiah coming at a particular point in time, the Jewish people were to live out the role of the Messiah as a light to the nations, an example of living out God’s Law.) Pre-reading prophecy and saying “what it clearly means” is fraught with problems – look at Hal Lindsey, whom **vanilla** respects deeply, but who has made error after error in identifying the symbology of Revelation and Daniel with events of the recent past. I don’t know what the Second Coming will be – I only know what He has called me to do in the interim. > [@](#): > > But I’d never say that that is license to do whatever you please. Neither do I, dear. If it hasn’t come clear yet, let me say it one more time: I’m a sinner saved by the grace of God. He never ordered me to condemn the sins of others; instead, He told me to love them, and show them who He is by doing so. That’s the difference between what you and what I have to say, not some “license to do whatever you please” malarkey. It very well may be that God is not pleased with what **Homebrew** and **lekatt** are doing – but that’s **their** business, not mine. I have enough trouble trying to follow Him myself without trying to tell them what to do as well. (And, by the way, His love is able to reach places that fear of Him and His wrath cannot – examples abound in history, including the New Testament.) ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-christians-continue-to-be-sinners-after-conversion/147940/57 "2003-01-14T02:24:58Z")
I’m fairly confident I’m doing what God wants me to do. I don’t know what God wants you to do. I think, from now on, that’s the only answer I’ll ever give anyone who asks me about religion. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-christians-continue-to-be-sinners-after-conversion/147940/58 "2003-01-14T02:30:48Z")
Sounds good to me, **cuauhtemoc**. Of course, there is no shortage of folks who are willing to explain to you just exactly what God wants you to do. I guess I am becoming one of them, too. Tris ---
**Author:** ![jjrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c77e96/32.png) [@jjrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjrt)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-christians-continue-to-be-sinners-after-conversion/147940/59 "2003-01-14T05:29:52Z")
_originally posted by Urban Ranger_ The question is, what is sin? Lets first forget about “original sin,” because all theologicians reject this silly notion. Now, as a first approximation, lets say sinning is breaking God’s laws. What is God’s laws? There used to be the Ten Commandments, but a whole bunch of Protestants insist that they don’t exist anymore, even though the bible does not say this. So, if they are correct, you don’t have to follow the Ten Commandments. So you are free to steal and do other kinds of nasty things as long as you Love. Something like that. * * * Urban according to Apostle Paul we do. Romans 13:8-10 8Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be \*\* any other commandment,\*\* it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 10Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Ephesians 6:1-24 1Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. 2Honor thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise; 3that it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth. 1 John 3:23-24 23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. Which is what everyone else has said but found in a different place. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-christians-continue-to-be-sinners-after-conversion/147940/60 "2003-01-14T06:19:56Z")
> [@](#): > > The question is, what is sin? Lets first forget about “original sin,” because all theologicians reject this silly notion. > > Now, as a first approximation, lets say sinning is breaking God’s laws. What is God’s laws? There used to be the Ten Commandments, but a whole bunch of Protestants insist that they don’t exist anymore, even though the bible does not say this. So, if they are correct, you don’t have to follow the Ten Commandments. > > So you are free to steal and do other kinds of nasty things as long as you Love. Something like that. Well, I can’t say it any better than Paul: > [@](#): > > 8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; You shall not murder; You shall not steal; You shall not covet”; and any other commandment, are summed up in this word, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore, love is the fulfilling of the law. (Romans 13:8-10) > > 14 For he is our peace; in his flesh he has made both groups into one and has broken down the dividing wall, that is, the hostility between us. 15 He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace, 16 and might reconcile both groups to God in one body through the cross, thus putting to death that hostility through it. 17 So he came and proclaimed peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near; 18 for through him both of us have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone. (Ephesians 2:14-20) > > 9 But avoid stupid controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. (Titus 3:9) 🙂 Somewhere in Romans he says that we are free from the law, not to sin but to bear in ourselves by grace God’s righteousness. Bottom line, for me: What used to be the Law, given to the Jews, and the stuff Paul commands to the churches he writes to, is _guidelines_ towards moral behavior, not standalone penal acts that specify what one is to do or not do in a given circumstance. If it works to show love towards God and man, do it! If it does not, stop right there! That’s what Jesus said to do, and that’s what I try to do. I am so sick of people who break God’s commandment not to sit in judgment over others, lest you be judged with the same measure, accusing **me** and others who believe as I do of not giving a flying fornication about moral behavior, that I could puke! (I’m not accusing you, certainly, and actually nobody else who is a regular on this board – but it’s all over the place, and **His4Ever** quoted it in another thread a day or two ago. We’re trying our best to do what **Jesus** commanded. If somebody else thinks they can live out the Law and get saved that way, that’s their worry – according to Paul, it can’t be done. But a loving God calls us to something entirely different – the sorts of things that have been posted from the Gospels and First John, about kindly, gentle behavior that shows love towards others. Sorry for the rant – but it’s so frustrating to try to convince people of the simple words of Jesus and have them see it through the glasses of a reporter assigned to cover a controversial trial, rather than (to continue the metaphor) someone writing a feature article about a counseling center’s good work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-christians-continue-to-be-sinners-after-conversion/147940.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-christians-continue-to-be-sinners-after-conversion/147940.md?page=4)