# Do communist leaders actually believe in communism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2003, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-communist-leaders-actually-believe-in-communism/166937 "2003-04-06T22:29:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-communist-leaders-actually-believe-in-communism/166937/61 "2003-04-08T14:54:28Z")
Zorro, me no authority on spelling. me only authority on everything else. šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-communist-leaders-actually-believe-in-communism/166937/62 "2003-04-08T15:51:57Z")
## quote: ## Oh, and to answer your first question, I donā€™t think Iā€™ve ever heard of any country going Communist and being successful at it. I mean, name one communist nation, where people actually want to go and live? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RandySpears \* > \*\*Well you were asking me an unspecified question: > > > [@](#): > > > > I mean, name one communist nation, where people actually want to go and live? > > Here ā€œpeopleā€ not specified, and itā€™s of sigificant importance what kind of people you are thinking of here. Iā€™ll examplify: > > ā€œpeopleā€ = ā€œany people at allā€: > > This was the interpretation I responded to. > > ā€œpeopleā€ = ā€œpeople in general / people in large numbersā€: > > In this case I would say that this is not true in the case of Cuba. But on the other hand it is true for a very small number, probably zero, of third world countries. > > ā€œpeopleā€ = ā€œpeople like you and me; reasonably prosperous westernersā€: > > In the case of Cuba, probably a fair amount of us would. Iā€™ve heard that there are no-tax zones, to spawn foreign investments. (Only through word-of-mouth, not unlikely though). So we could make a fair buck while basking in the sunshine. > > So you see, there is a need to qualify what you mean, if you want to make a point. > \*\* Gee, bayonet1976 had no problem understanding me. But wait, the way you talk, it reminds me of someoneā€¦oh, oh, oh, I think I got itā€¦Wow, what an honor Mr. Clinton. I mean, Iā€™m a republican who never voted for you, but still, to be talking to a former presidentā€¦ This explains why you canā€™t figure out things on your own, and need everything explained to you. I mean, after all, you donā€™t even know the meaning of the word ā€œisā€, so of course youā€™re having problems reading my posts. I get it now. ---
**Author:** ![errata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/839c29/32.png) [@errata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/errata)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-communist-leaders-actually-believe-in-communism/166937/63 "2003-04-08T16:17:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joel \* > Yes, of course people flee non communist countries like Mexico and Haiti. And??? As per the OP, the leaders actually giving a squat about the welfare of their people and believing that they are better off in some respects. Comparing a third world country to one of the wealthiest isnā€™t realistic. Third world countries are often riddled with government corruption military juntas and the like whether communist or capitalist. Therefore, one could genuinely believe there is some justification to the loss of rights. BTW, Baby Doc in Haiti could easily rival most dictators in terms of oppression. ---
**Author:** ![bayonet1976](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bayonet1976](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bayonet1976)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-communist-leaders-actually-believe-in-communism/166937/64 "2003-04-08T17:29:51Z")
Regarding migration to communist countries, since that seems to be the debate dā€™jour, please note that Haiti is a short boat ride away from Cuba, I mean really short. Yet Haitians continue to choose the much longer trip to Florida. Yes I know, that proves nothing, but I know that if I lived next door to a benign paradise I would certainly give that a try before undertaking a riskier enterprise. Unless of course Iā€™m reasonably sure that said benign paradise is no such thing. Final point, Cuba does not publish migration stats, either online or anywhere I could find a reference to, but I will tell you that most Cubans would smack their head in disbelief if they heard even one such person moved to Cuba voluntarily. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-communist-leaders-actually-believe-in-communism/166937/65 "2003-04-08T17:54:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Gee, bayonet1976 had no problem understanding me. I am very happy that you and bayonet agree on things. But I donĀ“t. Now, as of yet I donā€™t see bayonet having any trouble with staying on topic. You on the other handā€¦ > [@](#): > > But wait, the way you talk, it reminds me of someoneā€¦oh, oh, oh, I think I got itā€¦Wow, what an honor Mr. Clinton. I mean, Iā€™m a republican who never voted for you, but still, to be talking to a former presidentā€¦ > This explains why you canā€™t figure out things on your own, and need everything explained to you. This is the weirdest form of Ad hominem: Out of nowhere you attack the character ofā€¦ Bill Clinton? Ok fine. You sure you in the right thread? > [@](#): > > I mean, after all, you donā€™t even know the meaning of the word ā€œisā€, so of course youā€™re having problems reading my posts. I get it now. You think so. When was that? Or are you just making educated guesses? šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-communist-leaders-actually-believe-in-communism/166937/66 "2003-04-08T19:00:58Z")
**bayonet:** > [@](#): > > Regarding migration to communist countries, since that seems to be the debate dā€™jour, please note that Haiti is a short boat ride away from Cuba, I mean really short. Yet Haitians continue to choose the much longer trip to Florida. Yes I know, that proves nothing, but I know that if I lived next door to a benign paradise I would certainly give that a try before undertaking a riskier enterprise. Unless of course Iā€™m reasonably sure that said benign paradise is no such thing. Hm, who have stated that Cuba is a ā€œbenign paradiseā€? Generally people with a choice between fleeing to a poor third-world country and fleeing to a rich first-world country chose the latter. Proven by the continous immigration to western europe and the united states from places all over the world. If you simply mean that florida is generally a better place to live than cuba for most people i think i would agree though (without having tried either). The embargo: Iā€™ll have to get back to you on this one later, since a proper answer will require some digging. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-communist-leaders-actually-believe-in-communism/166937/67 "2003-04-09T04:29:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by errata \* > \*\*As per the OP, the leaders actually giving a squat about the welfare of their people and believing that they are better off in some respects. Comparing a third world country to one of the wealthiest isnā€™t realistic. Third world countries are often riddled with government corruption military juntas and the like whether communist or capitalist. Therefore, one could genuinely believe there is some justification to the loss of rights. > > BTW, Baby Doc in Haiti could easily rival most dictators in terms of oppression. \*\* Well, I would compare a wealthy communist nation to a wealthy capitalist nation, if a wealthy communist nation existed. Justification of the loss of rights? Iā€™m afraid Iā€™ll have to agree with Patrick Henry when he said ā€œGive me liberty or give me death.ā€ Yes, itā€™s true, that people escaping from a country doesnā€™t necessarily mean that the country is communist. However; if a country is communist, then it most likely means that people will try to escape it. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-communist-leaders-actually-believe-in-communism/166937/68 "2003-04-09T04:32:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RandySpears \* > \*\*This is the weirdest form of Ad hominem: Out of nowhere you attack the character ofā€¦ Bill Clinton? Ok fine. You sure you in the right thread? > \*\* Wow, if you think that I was attacking the character of Bill Clinton, then you really missed the point that I was trying to make. But thatā€™s OK, Iā€™m getting use to it šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-communist-leaders-actually-believe-in-communism/166937/69 "2003-04-09T09:57:31Z")
Well **Joel** , If your point was about me being as slippery as (your perception of) the Big Willy, and that I, like him _ā€œcanā€™t figure out things on your own, and need everything explained to youā€_ i did follow you. And if your additional point was that I, like him _ā€œdonā€™t even know the meaning of the word ā€œisā€ā€_, then I got that as well. I just didnā€™t think they were very good points. Bullshit, frankly. Since you askedā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-communist-leaders-actually-believe-in-communism/166937/70 "2003-04-09T15:47:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RandySpears \* > \*\*Well **Joel** , > > If your point was about me being as slippery as (your perception of) the Big Willy, and that I, like him _ā€œcanā€™t figure out things on your own, and need everything explained to youā€_ i did follow you. And if your additional point was that I, like him _ā€œdonā€™t even know the meaning of the word ā€œisā€ā€_, then I got that as well. > > I just didnā€™t think they were very good points. Bullshit, frankly. Since you askedā€¦ \*\* Youā€™re failure to grasp almost every single post I make amazes me. My Clinton post had to do with the fact that you have to have things spelled out for you. Bill Clinton had to have the meaning of the word ā€œisā€ spelled out for him. See the connection? ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-communist-leaders-actually-believe-in-communism/166937/71 "2003-04-09T15:50:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by errata \* > \*\*Third world countries are often riddled with government corruption military juntas and the like whether communist or capitalist. Therefore, one could genuinely believe there is some justification to the loss of rights. > \*\* One more point Iā€™d like to make about what you just said. How does jailing and/or executing disidents feed the starving? And how does giving mock trials, or no trial at all give money to the poor? In short, how does taking away rights improve the lives of people? ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-communist-leaders-actually-believe-in-communism/166937/72 "2003-04-09T17:54:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Youā€™re failure to grasp almost every single post I make amazes me. > My Clinton post had to do with the fact that you have to have things spelled out for you. Bill Clinton had to have the meaning of the word ā€œisā€ spelled out for him. See the connection? I am not familiar would that incident. Surprised still that i didnt get it? I donā€™t think I have to really. Your post still amonts to Bullshit. If you canā€™t participate in a debate without succumbing to arguments at the intellectual level of Jay Leno, donā€™t bother. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-communist-leaders-actually-believe-in-communism/166937/73 "2003-04-09T18:10:37Z")
Oh, and **Joel** , you did forget to adress the issue! In your post: > [@](#): > > I mean, name one communist nation, where people actually want to go and live? Could you please specify the scope of ā€œpeopleā€? Feel free to pretend that Iā€™m Bill Clinton if that makes you more comfortable. ---
**Author:** ![Gr8Kat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gr8kat/32/18668_2.png) [@Gr8Kat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gr8Kat)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-communist-leaders-actually-believe-in-communism/166937/74 "2003-04-09T23:19:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RandySpears \* > **Oh, and Joel, you did forget to adress the issue! In your post:** ## quote: ## I mean, name one communist nation, where people actually want to go and live? > [@](#): > > **Could you please specify the scope of ā€œpeopleā€?** When words like ā€œpeopleā€ are used, they are generalizations with room for exceptions. Yes, there are communist sympathizers, and people who think that loss of freedom and poverty are good things, but these people are in the minority. Iā€™ve never been in a conversation, where someone hears the word people, they automatically assume **all** people. Usually, the **all** needs to be specified first. Iā€™ll give you an example. The auto shop/car repair company **Pep Boys** have the slogan ā€œPep Boys. Cars like us, people love us.ā€ Now, you do actually think that they mean all people, everywhere, all over the world? Or do you realize that theyā€™re making a generalization, and there are going to be exceptions? ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-communist-leaders-actually-believe-in-communism/166937/75 "2003-04-09T23:50:32Z")
**Gr8Kat:** Of course. But I happened to think that it was necessary in this case to have a proper scope in order to have a proper discussion. Because generalizations are dangerous. And a debate on government forms should not be carried out with the rethorical techniques used in advertizing. I suggest that you read my response to Joels claim where I suggested three different scopes of ā€œpeopleā€, and discussed them. Now **Joel** could have agreed to either one of them. Or he could have suggested another one. That would have lead somewhere. Instead he seems to feel that I should just accept his argument as is. Presumably because he thinks iā€™m as slow as Bill Clintonā€¦ šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-communist-leaders-actually-believe-in-communism/166937/76 "2003-04-09T23:57:00Z")
Asuming of course that your post was directed towards me šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-communist-leaders-actually-believe-in-communism/166937/77 "2003-04-11T01:09:02Z")
UUUHHHGGGG!!! THOSE POSTS FROM GR8KAT were actually from me!!! Sheā€™s my wife, she logs in, and then, from time to time I forget to log out and re-log in as me.!!! Damn! Damn!, Damn!, I keep doing thisā€¦UUUHHHGGGGG!!! ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-communist-leaders-actually-believe-in-communism/166937/78 "2003-04-11T01:33:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RandySpears \* > Of course. But I happened to think that it was necessary in this case to have a proper scope in order to have a proper discussion. > > Because generalizations are dangerous. And a debate on government forms should not be carried out with the rethorical techniques used in advertizing. > \*\* No, No, No, youā€™re still not getting what Iā€™m saying. Iā€™ll try **one last time** and then, I give up. When speaking, usually about anything, when the word people is used, it is almost never ment as ā€œALLā€ or every person in the whole wide world. When I said that people donā€™t want to live in a communist nation, I didnā€™t feel the need to spell out what I ment by people because I didnā€™t expect anybody to think I ment all people everywhere because this is one of those things, that most people, figure out on their own. Now, you say that I need to spell things out OK, the sentence that you choose: **I mean, name one communist nation, where people actually want to go and live?** Now, would you really prefer I write that like this? **I mean, name one communist nation, where people who arenā€™t part of the regime, or arenā€™t communist sympathisers, or arenā€™t that educated, or donā€™t mind poverty and a lack of freedom, actually want to go and live, and by live, I mean own a permanent residence in a communist country, and stay all, or most of thier life that country.** ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-communist-leaders-actually-believe-in-communism/166937/79 "2003-04-11T09:47:45Z")
I do get it! But you donā€™t. This time around Iā€™ll take the time to explain my sentiments in enough detail so that we maybe, maybe can understand each other. **Since** you didnā€™t bother to spell it out **I suggested** three ways to spell it out. For your comfort. And responded to them all. As a starting point for further discussion. If you didnā€™t like them you could have further explained how you meant. (But instead you resorted to ranting). Iā€™ll repost them. > [@](#): > > _Your original question_ > I mean, name one communist nation, where people actually want to go and live? > [@](#): > > _My attempt to answer it_ > [1] ā€œpeopleā€ = ā€œany people at allā€: > > [In this case the answer is ā€œall communist nationsā€, since there are exceptions to every rule] > > [2] ā€œpeopleā€ = ā€œpeople in general / people in large numbersā€: > > In this case I would say that this is not true in the case of Cuba. But on the other hand it is true for a very small number, probably zero, of third world countries. > > [3] ā€œpeopleā€ = ā€œpeople like you and me; reasonably prosperous westernersā€: > > In the case of Cuba, probably a fair amount of us would. Iā€™ve heard that there are no-tax zones, to spawn foreign investments. (Only through word-of-mouth, not unlikely though). So we could make a fair buck while basking in the sunshine. So. I would hold it very likely that what you were thinking of was something like (2). Maybe (3). Or both of those. Why is it important that you spell it out? Canā€™t I really, really understand what you mean to say anyway? Of course I understand what youā€™re aiming at with your question. I can guess pretty accurately. But I **do** think there are some problems with the question asked in that manner. (1) It is a rethorical question. (2) It is a simplistic question. You are now aware of that I would give a different answer for every new way to interpret ā€œpeopleā€. Which is why it is important for you, and for me, to know which ā€œpeopleā€ you are talking about. And yes it is possible (for some people) to elaborate on ā€œpeopleā€ without writing 300 word sentences. Now, to end this useless arguing, Iā€™ll rephrase your question like so: ā€œname one communist nation, where people in general / people in large numbers actually want to go and live?ā€ And my answer then: **There are probably none. But on the other hand that is also true for all third world countries, which is what the absolute majority of communist nations ever have been.** Letā€™s take it from there, ok tavaritj? šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![bayonet1976](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bayonet1976](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bayonet1976)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-communist-leaders-actually-believe-in-communism/166937/80 "2003-04-11T13:46:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RandySpears \* > \*\*Now, to end this useless arguing, Iā€™ll rephrase your question like so: ā€œname one communist nation, where people in general / people in large numbers actually want to go and live?ā€ > > And my answer then: > > **There are probably none. But on the other hand that is also true for all third world countries, which is what the absolute majority of communist nations ever have been.** > > Letā€™s take it from there, ok tavaritj? šŸ™‚ \*\* Letā€™s see: Poland, East Germany, Hungary, Rumania, USSR, Checkoslovakia, Yugoslavia. Third World countries? Not by the very definition of 3rd world countries. Total immigration? Probably negligible. That leaves: China, Viet Nam, Cuba, North Korea. 3rd world countries? Ok. Total immigration? Probably negligible. Common factors? Communism and low immigration. Maybe what these countries needed was a better PR firm. ā€œAre you bewildered by supermarket shelves with a dizzying array of products? Mortified by short trips to the store? Confused by having to make your own career choices? Voting for more than one candidate for elections?ā€ ā€œIf you answered yes to any of these questions then youā€™re in luck! Now, and for a limited time, you can solve all these problems! Itā€™s true! Life in a communist workerā€™s paradise awaits you!ā€ ā€œSupermarket choices made simple! Products available in only one variety! Long lines where you can socialize at leisure with the proletariat! We will decide what your career will be! The simple one candidate ballot will make voting a pleasure again!ā€ ā€œBut you must act now! Communism is on its way out, and only a priviledge few can enjoy its pleasure! And if you act now we will throw in, at no extra charge, this attractive prison outfit, of genuine sackcloth, which you can wear anytime youā€™re convicted of a thought crime! Remember supplies are limited, you must act now.ā€ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-communist-leaders-actually-believe-in-communism/166937.md?page=3)